The issue is consequences of your actions -- not just the consequences you want, all the consequences. Efficiency is a red herring. Ethics ends up just two sides saying "I'm right you're wrong". The only meaningful question is "Is the government fulfilling its role as government?". Or the simpler proxy question: "Is this constitutional?". Ethics talk is opinion because obviously the people doing it and their supporte…
Ethics Aside, Is NSA's Spy Tool Efficient?
31–39 of 39 posts
Re: Ethics Aside, Is NSA's Spy Tool Efficient?
#32Earlier quoted context omitted.
You don't have to imagine how Prism works, as it has already been described in decent detail in a number of articles: http://theweek.com/article/index/245360/solving-the-mystery-... http://www.vanityfair.com/online/eichenwald/2013/06/prism-is...
Those don't seem to really expain how , why or when it is used.
Re: Ethics Aside, Is NSA's Spy Tool Efficient?
#33"Ethics aside".... What a world we live in! :( But no, it isn't, because it can be gamed like any other rules system. The NSA probably thinks their system hasn't been explored yet, relying as they do primarily on security through obfuscation. One of the greatest pleasures in life is examining "black box" systems and figuring them out. The NSA would be fools to expect that their system is not already being gamed.
Yes, the same with torture. Hey, if torture works, maybe we should just allow it in every police station on everyone we ever arrest. It should make getting those confessions out so much easier! Say hello to the 2 centuries ago society! Glad to see the past 2 centuries have gone to waste in terms of what in means to evolve as a human in a modern society.
Torture must be both moral and strategically effective to make sense. Therefore, if either one is not the case, then you shouldn't stand for your government torturing people.
It is difficult to convince someone to adopt different values using logic alone. Perhaps ultimately the ethics behind the value of privacy can be traced to its role in constructing a society that produces the best quality of life for people.
If so then it may start with whether hurting someone can defuse a ticking bomb, then be expanded to whether hurting more people can undermine an enemy and whether it yields less accurate information than subtler interrogation methods, or perhaps whether it recruits more enemies and is a losing strategy, and some many steps later, after addressing whether it undermines the fundamental goals that make the society worth protecting, what kind of people it makes us to engage in torture.
I suppose that what I am getting at is that we wouldn't necessarily agree with the values that informed past ideas about what is moral. Therefore, if we can simply point out that torturing also isn't in our strategic interest we can short circuit nonsense arguments about necessary evil. The same goes for privacy invasions, however, I don't agree that these programs are likely to be inefficient. More likely, they will be unscientific and confirm biases, and tend to cause suffering for many innocent people, while also encouraging self-censorship.
They will also undermine the checks provided by institutions that have gone of the rails, or officials that have become corrupt having to interact with moral people. Perhaps most terrifying, I have read a couple journalists, of all professions, talk about these programs in context of TSA checks, and having to stand barefoot in front of gawkers, or be touched by strangers. Though these checks are a cause for indignity, and are varyingly effective, in comparison to universal surveillance, they are unlikely to quash any meaningful dissent or other important responsibilities of citizenship.
Re: Ethics Aside, Is NSA's Spy Tool Efficient?
#34Earlier quoted context omitted.
You don't have to imagine how Prism works, as it has already been described in decent detail in a number of articles: http://theweek.com/article/index/245360/solving-the-mystery-... http://www.vanityfair.com/online/eichenwald/2013/06/prism-is...
Those don't seem to really expain how , why or when it is used.
Re: Ethics Aside, Is NSA's Spy Tool Efficient?
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
> However, I've heard murmurs over the years about analysts passing off information in an unofficial capacity to federal law enforcement if what they come across sufficiently bothers them. Those agencies then figure out a way to legally obtain the data they were passed so it's admissible in court. Its trivial to see how such evidence could be laundered if the NSA wanted to -- all the NSA has to do is make anonymous t…
Absolutely true. What you said means the NSA has the capability to put whoever they wish under the microscope and effectively bury them by proxy. The only way that doesn't work is if they either have an irreproachable system of oversight, or whoever they're targeting has as led an extremely boring, uneventful life. In theory, senior employees or executives at NSA contractors may even utilize similar tactics for anti-…
Re: Ethics Aside, Is NSA's Spy Tool Efficient?
#36Can't we assume that the largest employer of mathematicians in the US [according to Wikipedia] has given this some thought? So either they know it's ineffective and do it anyway, because they can. More money, more power, more influence. Or it's not being used to generate leads, but as a way to look up retrospectively what people have done online once they become of interest from tip-offs and traditional investigation…
Re: Ethics Aside, Is NSA's Spy Tool Efficient?
#37Earlier quoted context omitted.
Absolutely true. What you said means the NSA has the capability to put whoever they wish under the microscope and effectively bury them by proxy. The only way that doesn't work is if they either have an irreproachable system of oversight, or whoever they're targeting has as led an extremely boring, uneventful life. In theory, senior employees or executives at NSA contractors may even utilize similar tactics for anti-…
You don't think they've thought of it being used between their contractors/executives? And that they haven't put any effort in to stopping that sort of use internally?
I am, to put it mildly, considerably less sure that these controls operate in a manner that inhibit NSA leadership from directing that this be done in specific cases, when they feel that providing this kind of under-the-table feed of information, particularly to domestic law-enforcement when the conditions in which the information was gathered would, if it were known, prevent the use of any information derived from it in court under the fruit of the poisonous tree doctrine.
Re: Ethics Aside, Is NSA's Spy Tool Efficient?
#38The issue is consequences of your actions -- not just the consequences you want, all the consequences. Efficiency is a red herring. Ethics ends up just two sides saying "I'm right you're wrong". The only meaningful question is "Is the government fulfilling its role as government?". Or the simpler proxy question: "Is this constitutional?". Ethics talk is opinion because obviously the people doing it and their supporte…
This attitude is very dangerous as the government will just change its role.
Everything is rooted in ethics and thats why we should be worried whether our laws and actions are ethical. Just because people disagree on it does not mean we should stop trying to find out objective ethical laws and principles.
Re: Ethics Aside, Is NSA's Spy Tool Efficient?
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
Absolutely true. What you said means the NSA has the capability to put whoever they wish under the microscope and effectively bury them by proxy. The only way that doesn't work is if they either have an irreproachable system of oversight, or whoever they're targeting has as led an extremely boring, uneventful life. In theory, senior employees or executives at NSA contractors may even utilize similar tactics for anti-…
You don't think they've thought of it being used between their contractors/executives? And that they haven't put any effort in to stopping that sort of use internally?