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Ethics Aside, Is NSA's Spy Tool Efficient?

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Re: Ethics Aside, Is NSA's Spy Tool Efficient?

#21

Post by rl3 »

justatdotin wrote: post #7
rl3 wrote: post #6

I imagine the efficiency of their algorithms depends on what they're looking for. If they're looking for patterns similar to those of historical terrorists, then their false positive rate is likely reasonably low considering the scale of their data set. If they're looking for patterns or traits of hypothetical terrorist behavior, that's another story. Systems-based trading in the financial sector comes to mind. Const…

what if its not just all about terrorist behaviour

NSA is supposedly constrained to its strict national security mission charter. However, I've heard murmurs over the years about analysts passing off information in an unofficial capacity to federal law enforcement if what they come across sufficiently bothers them. Those agencies then figure out a way to legally obtain the data they were passed so it's admissible in court.

Recent quotes concerning GCHQ provide an interesting insight in this regard:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/prism-gchq-willi...

> "If you are a law-abiding citizen ..."

This implies they go after criminals and not just terrorists.

> "... of all the things those agencies are doing to stop your identify being stolen ..."

I guess they're also in the identity protection business.

> "But if you are a would-be terrorist or the centre of a criminal network ..."

Again, targeting of criminals (albeit high level).

---

IMHO, a top-secret dragnet surveillance program that's tightly restricted in scope to national security matters is a much easier pill to swallow than a completely legal, known program. The latter becomes nightmarish as soon as the data aggregates down the chain to law enforcement or other government agencies. Imagine local police departments having the same level of information about private citizens as NSA does. That's terrifying.

Re: Ethics Aside, Is NSA's Spy Tool Efficient?

#22

Post by brown9-2 »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #10

People seem to assume that PRISM would be a passive "find me the terrorists" button. I imagine in reality it's just a tool they use among others, similar to any other law enforcement database (Just with a much larger dataset). Like say for example, you catch a terrorist but he won't tell you anything and you suspect they were not acting alone. So, maybe you interview the guy's brother who insists he knows nothing , h…

You don't have to imagine how Prism works, as it has already been described in decent detail in a number of articles:

http://theweek.com/article/index/245360/solving-the-mystery-...

http://www.vanityfair.com/online/eichenwald/2013/06/prism-is...

Re: Ethics Aside, Is NSA's Spy Tool Efficient?

#23

Post by brown9-2 »

justatdotin wrote: post #7
rl3 wrote: post #6

I imagine the efficiency of their algorithms depends on what they're looking for. If they're looking for patterns similar to those of historical terrorists, then their false positive rate is likely reasonably low considering the scale of their data set. If they're looking for patterns or traits of hypothetical terrorist behavior, that's another story. Systems-based trading in the financial sector comes to mind. Const…

what if its not just all about terrorist behaviour

If it's not, and the program has been running for 6+ years, what has been the output of what they've been looking at?

Where are all the dissidents being rounded up?

Re: Ethics Aside, Is NSA's Spy Tool Efficient?

#25

Post by brown9-2 »

Prof. Thall flipped the question, pointing out that any algorithm hunting for terrorists would turn up some number of false positives -- probably a large one. As to whether that should rule out using algorithms, though, he says, "I would very much like to know what alternative they might suggest. With regard to identifying terrorist attacks originating in the U.S.A. before they are carried out, there is no free lunch, and we simply can't have it both ways."

IMO the last quote in this article is the perfect response to the quandaries raised by the rest of the article:

Any automated approach or data analysis is sure to raise false positives - but what other options are there? Zero data analysis or automation? Pure human "police" or "detective work" raises false positives as well.

Re: Ethics Aside, Is NSA's Spy Tool Efficient?

#26

Post by dragonwriter »

rl3 wrote: post #21
justatdotin wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what if its not just all about terrorist behaviour

NSA is supposedly constrained to its strict national security mission charter. However, I've heard murmurs over the years about analysts passing off information in an unofficial capacity to federal law enforcement if what they come across sufficiently bothers them. Those agencies then figure out a way to legally obtain the data they were passed so it's admissible in court. Recent quotes concerning GCHQ provide an int…

> However, I've heard murmurs over the years about analysts passing off information in an unofficial capacity to federal law enforcement if what they come across sufficiently bothers them. Those agencies then figure out a way to legally obtain the data they were passed so it's admissible in court.

Its trivial to see how such evidence could be laundered if the NSA wanted to -- all the NSA has to do is make anonymous tips to law enforcement that provide the basis for regular search, wiretap, etc. warrants. To do this, of course, they may need to provide information that can be confirmed without a warrant to demonstrate credibility, but its hardly as if the NSA is going to have trouble doing that. The receiving law enforcement agencies could be completely in the dark as to the actual source.

Re: Ethics Aside, Is NSA's Spy Tool Efficient?

#27

Post by jiggy2011 »

brown9-2 wrote: post #22
jiggy2011 wrote: post #10

People seem to assume that PRISM would be a passive "find me the terrorists" button. I imagine in reality it's just a tool they use among others, similar to any other law enforcement database (Just with a much larger dataset). Like say for example, you catch a terrorist but he won't tell you anything and you suspect they were not acting alone. So, maybe you interview the guy's brother who insists he knows nothing , h…

You don't have to imagine how Prism works, as it has already been described in decent detail in a number of articles: http://theweek.com/article/index/245360/solving-the-mystery-... http://www.vanityfair.com/online/eichenwald/2013/06/prism-is...

Those don't seem to really expain how , why or when it is used.

Re: Ethics Aside, Is NSA's Spy Tool Efficient?

#28

Post by rl3 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #26
rl3 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NSA is supposedly constrained to its strict national security mission charter. However, I've heard murmurs over the years about analysts passing off information in an unofficial capacity to federal law enforcement if what they come across sufficiently bothers them. Those agencies then figure out a way to legally obtain the data they were passed so it's admissible in court. Recent quotes concerning GCHQ provide an int…

> However, I've heard murmurs over the years about analysts passing off information in an unofficial capacity to federal law enforcement if what they come across sufficiently bothers them. Those agencies then figure out a way to legally obtain the data they were passed so it's admissible in court. Its trivial to see how such evidence could be laundered if the NSA wanted to -- all the NSA has to do is make anonymous t…

Absolutely true. What you said means the NSA has the capability to put whoever they wish under the microscope and effectively bury them by proxy. The only way that doesn't work is if they either have an irreproachable system of oversight, or whoever they're targeting has as led an extremely boring, uneventful life.

In theory, senior employees or executives at NSA contractors may even utilize similar tactics for anti-competitive or corporate espionage purposes.

Re: Ethics Aside, Is NSA's Spy Tool Efficient?

#29

Post by MisterWebz »

danso wrote: post #13

While it's impossible to estimate how smoothly things actually work in the NSA, if you are someone who takes the leaked slides as gospel, then you have to admit at least one thing: The slides were written as if morons were the audience. It uses brightly colored bubbles to define the very few key points involved. In any other bureaucracy, these slides would be seen as yet another example of office workers having to be…

Maybe PRISM is accessible to even lower level employees (hence why Snowden got a hold of it) and isn't relatively that much of a big secret within the organization, while the really "interesting" stuff happens behind locked doors and generally does not involve making silly powerpoint presentations.

Re: Ethics Aside, Is NSA's Spy Tool Efficient?

#30

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

brown9-2 wrote: post #24
fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #3

Non paywalled version: http://stream.wsj.com/story/latest-headlines/SS-2-63399/SS-2...

This link goes to the paywall also

Interesting. I went back to the link and it is now behind the paywall for me too.
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