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NSA-proof encryption exists. Why doesn’t anyone use it?

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Re: NSA-proof encryption exists. Why doesn’t anyone use it?

#51
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This has come up in the past on HN. As I understand it the newspaper story is bull. Pretty much. The same effect that causes stars to twinkle limits the resolution of space-based spy satellites imagery of the ground. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronomical_seeing

That's for distant stars though, isn't it? I mean, just with Google Maps you can see the mirrors on a car. Newsprint isn't that much of a step up.

Google Maps uses aerial photography from planes for the high-resolution layers of their maps, not satellite imagery.

Re: NSA-proof encryption exists. Why doesn’t anyone use it?

#52

I have a question that perhaps a cryptography expert could answer for me. My father told me when he was young, he visited Oak Ridge National Labs on a trip, and while there, they told him they had satellites that could read the print on a newspaper. At the time, it wasn't classified information; it was just something that nobody knew. Approximately 15-20 years later, satellites with that capability became well-known.…

Assume that over some time frame a crypto solution (the entire system matters as it's very easy to use encryption insecurely) will be compromised. You are essentially buying yourself time. So the question is how much time do you need to buy yourself.

Ok, so even if you select a key length of something very large which depends not only on bytes of the key but also the encryption algorithm as well. For a 4096 bit key that would be 1.0443888814131525066917527107166e+1233 combinations, assuming someone tried to brute force this at 100000 checks per second (a low estimate) it would take roughly 1.655867708988382335571652572800330388413185326368886003... × 10^1220 years to crack on average assuming the birthday paradox.

2^4096 / 2 / 100000 / 60 / 60 / 24 / 365

So that's a freaking long time to keep that data secure. Even radically scaling up the brute force attack across the entire world would be akin to boiling the oceans. (Not going to do out the cpu/watt/check number calculation to determine how much energy it would actually take compared to boiling the oceans...)

So are you safe? No because starting in WWII very smart mathematicians were finding ways to crack the algorithms and find patterns and holes in the encryption solutions that made the search space orders of magnitude smaller. So the best thing we can do is select well attacked, well researched but still secure systems, use a good key length and pray (I am not a religious man).

Edit: If you wish to be truly paranoid (don't recommend it), most of the important crypto research has been done by state organizations, this is how AES was selected from a group of submitted designs to NIST. Conversely there are few still secure and well researched algorithms besides AES out there, (Elliptic Curve basically, but those designs are under patents so not widely available etc)

Edit 2: Also wikipedia is a great starting point for understanding, but is not always complete. Still haven't seen it probably explain initialization vector or nounces before.

Oh and one last thing http://xkcd.com/538/

See

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_size

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brute-force_search

https://blogs.oracle.com/dcb/entry/zfs_boils_the_ocean_consu...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_cryptography

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Encryption_Standard

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptic_curve_cryptography

Re: NSA-proof encryption exists. Why doesn’t anyone use it?

#53

I have a question that perhaps a cryptography expert could answer for me. My father told me when he was young, he visited Oak Ridge National Labs on a trip, and while there, they told him they had satellites that could read the print on a newspaper. At the time, it wasn't classified information; it was just something that nobody knew. Approximately 15-20 years later, satellites with that capability became well-known.…

> This indicates to me that top secret technology is probably somewhere around 15-20 years ahead of what the general public knows about.

Err, maybe in optics at the time, but you can't just generalize like this. You can't consistently be ahead of everything all the time. More than likely the NSA suffers under Moore's law like everyone else.

Re: NSA-proof encryption exists. Why doesn’t anyone use it?

#54

> NSA-proof encryption exists. Yup. Except it's not that easy. Let's say that you're using OTR to provide very strong end-to-end encryption for a conversation between yourself and a buddy, Bob. Maybe he's in a hostile area, and you're worried that if his government sniffs his traffic, that he could be executed for speaking to Americans. Data in transit that is intercepted, if configured correctly, is almost certainly…

That's the old mentality: "NSA/CIA/FBI/UGA will actively spy on me."

The way I see it, that's not the greatest danger right now. Instead, we should be worried about the government being able to passively spy on everyone at the same time, by indiscriminately siphoning and analyzing data.

Re: NSA-proof encryption exists. Why doesn’t anyone use it?

#55

> NSA-proof encryption exists. Yup. Except it's not that easy. Let's say that you're using OTR to provide very strong end-to-end encryption for a conversation between yourself and a buddy, Bob. Maybe he's in a hostile area, and you're worried that if his government sniffs his traffic, that he could be executed for speaking to Americans. Data in transit that is intercepted, if configured correctly, is almost certainly…

One thing widespread encryption would do is make it impossible for the NSA to just slurp the combined textual output of humanity into hadoop and mapreduce over it. They can use "hitting the suspect with a wrench" cryptanalysis on a solo victim, but not on a crowd.

Except that they still have traffic data, which was the main thing they were collecting in the first place. Encryption only hides the contents of your communications - it doesn't hide who you were communicating with and when.

Re: NSA-proof encryption exists. Why doesn’t anyone use it?

#56

> NSA-proof encryption exists. Yup. Except it's not that easy. Let's say that you're using OTR to provide very strong end-to-end encryption for a conversation between yourself and a buddy, Bob. Maybe he's in a hostile area, and you're worried that if his government sniffs his traffic, that he could be executed for speaking to Americans. Data in transit that is intercepted, if configured correctly, is almost certainly…

Remember that post a little while ago about how most logical fallacies aren't actually logical fallacies? Here, you are committing an actual logical fallacy. It's called "shifting the goalposts."

The article is in response to a dragnet surveillance program, where everyone's communications are watched and presumably datamined. It's very easy to do this, because nothing is encrypted, and everyone uses services that expose metadata (like who is IM'ing who).

Your comment is entirely true. However, it presents an adversary that doesn't want dragnet, but targeted surveillance. It assumes that Bob will be immediately arrested if his communications become encrypted.

This is not the threat model that we're faced with now. Let's say you and Bob communicate using accounts you've made on random XMPP servers using Tor, and all the messages are encrypted with OTR. Both servers are in the US, and the NSA's metadata database shows E83Gxw@jabber.org sending lots of ciphertext to PAnd9B@jabber.org.

This is "NSA-proof" in that the NSA would not know to link PAnd9B@jabber.org with you using their existing systems. They would have to drastically escalate the cost of their surveillance program with respect to you and Bob to figure out what you're talking about. Unless you really are a political dissident, conspiracy theorist who accidentally discovered the UN's black helicopter program, or radical Islamist, you are now out of the surveillance dragnet.

That is to say, unless the threat model changes, using privacy-enhancing technology will keep your data safe from PRISM and similar dragnet programs.

Re: NSA-proof encryption exists. Why doesn’t anyone use it?

#57
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This has come up in the past on HN. As I understand it the newspaper story is bull. Pretty much. The same effect that causes stars to twinkle limits the resolution of space-based spy satellites imagery of the ground. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronomical_seeing

That's for distant stars though, isn't it? I mean, just with Google Maps you can see the mirrors on a car. Newsprint isn't that much of a step up.

All of the detailed views in Google Maps are actually aerial photography rather than satellite images. Much easier to get that kind of detail from 1500ft.

Re: NSA-proof encryption exists. Why doesn’t anyone use it?

#58

> NSA-proof encryption exists. Yup. Except it's not that easy. Let's say that you're using OTR to provide very strong end-to-end encryption for a conversation between yourself and a buddy, Bob. Maybe he's in a hostile area, and you're worried that if his government sniffs his traffic, that he could be executed for speaking to Americans. Data in transit that is intercepted, if configured correctly, is almost certainly…

Doesn't truecrypt use PBKDF2 or similar? In which case (assuming a good password) it would still be uncrackable in any practical sense.

Besides , in such an example the government would have to be suspecting bob already on some other grounds. In the case of a despotic regime they probably already have him in prison.

Re: NSA-proof encryption exists. Why doesn’t anyone use it?

#59

> NSA-proof encryption exists. Yup. Except it's not that easy. Let's say that you're using OTR to provide very strong end-to-end encryption for a conversation between yourself and a buddy, Bob. Maybe he's in a hostile area, and you're worried that if his government sniffs his traffic, that he could be executed for speaking to Americans. Data in transit that is intercepted, if configured correctly, is almost certainly…

Ah, the old rubber-hose cryptanalysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-hose_cryptanalysis However, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_forward_secrecy OTR does provide "perfect forward secrecy as well as deniable encryption". Doesn't that provide some protection against rubber-hose cryptanalysis?

No. As I understand it, the "deniable" in "deniable encryption" is that after the first handshake, there's no cryptographic proof that the messages sent originated from you. This is flimsy legal evidence, because there are more messages that originated from your Pidgin instance that are actually yours compared to those that are somehow fake, and nonexistent evidence when presented to someone who's already torturing you.

Re: NSA-proof encryption exists. Why doesn’t anyone use it?

#60
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's for distant stars though, isn't it? I mean, just with Google Maps you can see the mirrors on a car. Newsprint isn't that much of a step up.

Google Maps uses aerial photography from planes for the high-resolution layers of their maps, not satellite imagery.

Huh, interesting! I never knew that. So then I'll need to ask my father about what he was told again. Maybe something got misinterpreted along the way.
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