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Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried

news.nationalpost.com

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Re: Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried

#21

Post by ketralnis »

juskrey wrote: post #6

If something can make your body better without adverse effects, it is already there. You are not smarter than 3.5 billions of life evolution, period.

> You are not smarter than 3.5 billions of life evolution

That makes a great bumper sticker, but I don't buy it.

Evolution isn't directed. Humans are the product of something that happened to survive in some very specific circumstances. Lots of other things did too: sloths, flies, sea sponges. I'd rather be me than a sea sponge. Maybe there's a potential X that would rather be an X than me.

There are no evolutionary pressures on "I'd rather be".

Re: Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried

#22

Post by Ygg2 »

wisty wrote: post #5
Telomer wrote: post #2

There is a subreddit for this if you feel like reading more http://www.reddit.com/r/tDCS/

With the warning on the subreddit: Caution: you can be killed by a 9V battery

You can be killed by a 9V battery? How? Not from the charge I hope (not sarcastic).

Re: Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried

#23

Post by caycep »

I don't think he can do too much damage brain wise - the effects of the noninvasive transcranial magnetic/direct current stimulation only last for a few hours anyway.

The bigger issue is potentially getting skin burns by not getting the circuitry hooked up correctly. Or maybe frying your electronic gadgets if you have a magnetic stim device. I guess maybe you could theoretically trigger seizures if you have epilepsy, but in that case you'd be seeing a doctor regularly anyway and wouldn't have to DIY these things.

Re: Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried

#24

Post by gwern »

msluyter wrote: post #9
ChuckMcM wrote: post #7

I am convinced that at some point some smart sod will figure out how to create a 'high' by using something along the lines of this. Put on a headband, flick the switch, and blam! high as a kite. Turn the switch off, and back to being sober. When that happens, the world will change in a very unpredictable way. Billions, perhaps trillions of dollars that are part of the drug trade will suddenly have no where to go. All…

I think what you've just described is Larry Niven's "wirehead." In Larry Niven's Known Space stories, a wirehead is someone who has been fitted with an electronic brain implant (called a "droud" in the stories) to stimulate the pleasure centres of their brain. In the Known Space universe, wireheading is the most addictive habit known (Louis Wu is the only given example of a recovered addict), and wireheads usually di…

We already have wireheading, but the surgery is too invasive for it to be anything but an obscure curiosity.

Re: Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried

#25

Post by [deleted] »

msluyter wrote: post #9
ChuckMcM wrote: post #7

I am convinced that at some point some smart sod will figure out how to create a 'high' by using something along the lines of this. Put on a headband, flick the switch, and blam! high as a kite. Turn the switch off, and back to being sober. When that happens, the world will change in a very unpredictable way. Billions, perhaps trillions of dollars that are part of the drug trade will suddenly have no where to go. All…

I think what you've just described is Larry Niven's "wirehead." In Larry Niven's Known Space stories, a wirehead is someone who has been fitted with an electronic brain implant (called a "droud" in the stories) to stimulate the pleasure centres of their brain. In the Known Space universe, wireheading is the most addictive habit known (Louis Wu is the only given example of a recovered addict), and wireheads usually di…

[deleted]

Re: Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried

#26

Post by gwern »

ultramundane8 wrote: post #10
juskrey wrote: post #6

If something can make your body better without adverse effects, it is already there. You are not smarter than 3.5 billions of life evolution, period.

This reads like a form of faith. I don't share it. Is there literally no potential for artificial selection to outpace natural selection? I know this thinking can be dangerous and contains serious ethical problems, but the factual side of your statement I just can't agree with. Not without more to convince me.

> Is there literally no potential for artificial selection to outpace natural selection?

Of course there's potential and loopholes but the basic observation (dubbed 'Algernon's law' by some; I've written an entire essay on the topic: http://www.gwern.net/Drug%20heuristics ) seems sound for tDCS: it's such a trivial intervention that it shouldn't work, which suggests there must be some catch.

The catch may well be trivial from our modern perspective, in the same way that staying up late or using stimulants and so burning some more calories is a trivial catch from the modern perspective ("'oh no', said the fat American man, 'you mean X might cause me to burn some more calories? how awful'"), but until the catch has been identified, tDCS has not been fully understood.

Re: Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried

#27

Post by will_work4tears »

Ygg2 wrote: post #22
wisty wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the warning on the subreddit: Caution: you can be killed by a 9V battery

You can be killed by a 9V battery? How? Not from the charge I hope (not sarcastic).

There's a link to the darwinawards site on the subreddit. Apparently it was a Navy service member that stuck the electrodes into his fingers and the current traveled through the bloodstream across his heart.

Sounds like an urban legend, but if you read the back and forth on it, it's rather interesting.

Re: Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried

#28

Post by tankbot »

Ygg2 wrote: post #22
wisty wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the warning on the subreddit: Caution: you can be killed by a 9V battery

You can be killed by a 9V battery? How? Not from the charge I hope (not sarcastic).

I suppose you could potentially choke on it. Darwin was right you know.

Re: Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried

#29

Post by jhaywood »

Ygg2 wrote: post #22
wisty wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the warning on the subreddit: Caution: you can be killed by a 9V battery

You can be killed by a 9V battery? How? Not from the charge I hope (not sarcastic).

The internal electrical resistance of your tissues is a lot lower than the resistance provided by your skin. If you puncture your skin with electrodes a 9V battery can generate enough current to stop your heart.
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