Live data from Hacker News

Surveillance: A Threat to Democracy

nytimes.com

41–50 of 74 posts

Re: Surveillance: A Threat to Democracy

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a very interesting video about 9/11 that every American really, really, really should watch put out by a group called Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth. "9/11: Explosive Evidence - Experts Speak Out": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddz2mw2vaEg

I recommend that you read better sources: http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-09-11/

Actually, that AEA911Truth video is very good with some very high calibre scientists and engineers discussing the event. I especially liked Lynn Margulis's description of what science actually is and how the follow up "investigation" cannot be called scientific by any stretch of the immagination. You should watch it before you just dismiss it.

Re: Surveillance: A Threat to Democracy

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no God for me either, but isn't that a pedantic point? I think it could just as easily read as > Your rights come from our nature , not government.

Reading it that way doesn't make it make any more sense.

That's irrelevant. (And I disagree.)

Re: Surveillance: A Threat to Democracy

#43
post #23
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On that note, if the US had a 9/11 event every month, that would still be less dead people than we lose to suicides, which was at 1.6% the number 10 cause of all deaths in 2010. Of course, every death is one too many, but imagine we put the same amount of money into mental health research and treatment that we are currently pumping into the by-definition-unwinnable "war on terror". Less people die by terror than by a…

If people honestly cared about the overall risk to them every nation would be powered by nuclear with perhaps a smattering of renewable generation in areas where it clearly made sense.

nonsense. even ignoring the undeniable nexus between weapons and civilian power programs, where I live, nuclear power would be more expensive and much slower to roll out.

Re: Surveillance: A Threat to Democracy

#44
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people honestly cared about the overall risk to them every nation would be powered by nuclear with perhaps a smattering of renewable generation in areas where it clearly made sense.

nonsense. even ignoring the undeniable nexus between weapons and civilian power programs, where I live, nuclear power would be more expensive and much slower to roll out.

Slower to roll out, yes, but the change would have happened long ago so we'd be talking about incremental upgrades anyways, not new construction everywhere.

As far as cost, nuclear has the fewest deaths per unit energy generated (yes, even including renewables) and is only more expensive than fossil-fueled solutions which would be disfavored due to carbon emissions concerns. Renewable can be less expensive (which is why I mentioned it).

The current nuclear cost estimates include some rather insane design margins, containments, redundant system after redundant system which could all probably be reduced a bit without appreciably affecting deaths/TW-hr, which would make it cheaper.

Also, a major portion of the expense is from very restrictive contamination handling requirements to keep radiation exposure to the workers themselves at extremely low levels. These levels could probably also be increased without detectable increase in cancer rate (in fact, it may even reduce cancer incidence; see radiation hormesis). Would we really say that nuclear workers absolutely much be safer than coal plant workers, coal miners, etc.? We do now, and this also makes nuclear more expensive.

Besides, if it's true that there is an undeniable nexus between all civilian nuclear power programs and nuclear weapons programs then it is probably imperative to take much stronger action against Iran than we are currently taking, since we can't trust their assurances that their program is strictly for civilian power generation. Unless of course, we're willing to allow them to further destabilize the whole Middle East region.

Re: Surveillance: A Threat to Democracy

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your rights come from God is not a figure of speech; it's a statement of belief in God and it's not pedantic to point this out.

No, it is a figure of speech and it is pedantic to claim that it is about belief in any deity. It is similarly used in this context: "God gave you legs, now move your ass out of my way!" It is nothing more than a way to express the idea that rights are something people are born with, regardless of who is in power or what sort of government rules over them. That is how the founding fathers (another figure of speech, n…

You're absurd.

Re: Surveillance: A Threat to Democracy

#46
I would suggest its a threat to society, even humanity it's self.

Social interaction only works because we have the ability to keep secrets. We hide our true feelings and intents to enable the great machine to work. If those views became known to all, you'd be in trouble. Worse still, what if you really knew every one else's views. Even worse than that, say a few people knew your real views, then used them to manipulate you.

Our ability to keep things private is vital.

I hope that some people think I'm talking about interpersonal relationships, and that other people think I'm talking about international diplomatic relations. If government expects to be able to keep secrets and privacy, it had better understand my need for it too. If it doesn't want its privacy abused, then it had better not abuse mine. We both need and value it.

Re: Surveillance: A Threat to Democracy

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they don't; the premise of America is the Constitution and it doesn't mention God. You're thinking of the Declaration of Independence which is little more than a fuck you to England, it is not however our founding document nor does it reflect our principles which were actually hammered out by the Constitution as a that of a secular nation.

Replace "God" with "self-evident." You are wrong and missing the metaphor.

God is not equal to self evident, and I'm not wrong.

Re: Surveillance: A Threat to Democracy

#48
post #6

If surveilance threathens your choice, then it's a threat to the democracy, but then US has never been a real democracy, but a representative one. As such it's congresmen and senators that might be threatened by it since the do our real voting for us.

> but then US has never been a real democracy, but a representative one. A representative democracy is a real democracy; it's just not a direct democracy. Please stop this nonsense of thinking that only direct democracies count as democracies.

I think only direct democracy is a real democracy. No need for "direct", just "democracy" will do. The fact that so call democratic countries need a modifier before the word "democracy" tells you that it is not real, as such.

A representative democracy is really a practical alternative to a real democracy which would have been hard to implement. That doesn't make it real though. Its just the practical best one can do, probably. That abstraction layer of representatives, who get a free reign, gets in the way, rendering it no longer a real democracy.

Re: Surveillance: A Threat to Democracy

#49
post #39

Surprised and pleased to see the NYT editorial board take this stance, considering it has traditionally supported the Obama administration. According to a poll cited in today's WSJ and LA Times ( http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-republicans-democ... ), Democrats tend to support NSA surveillance, whereas Republicans tend to oppose it — a complete reversal of the situation under the Bush 43 administration. In…

The country needs more media organizations who are willing to take non-partisan stances like this.

Re: Surveillance: A Threat to Democracy

#50

No, surveillance is not a threat to democracy, people not caring about democracy is what threatens democracy. Democracy has never been a right, it's always been a privilege that people demanded, and guess what, when people stop demanding it, power will naturally collude.

Additionally "surveillance" is far too general a concept to be considered harmful or helpful in and of itself. The determining factor lies in the system that surrounds it.

In other words, a "democratic surveillance state" isn't an oxymoron. Nor it it necessarily a bad thing. However, it differs sharply from an authoritarian surveillance state, which is invariably horrible.

Writing for the Washington Post, Mike Konczal elaborates on this distinction in the best surveillance-related piece I've read post-PRISM.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/06/08/i...

Post reply on HN