Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Surveillance: A Threat to Democracy

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 74 posts

Re: Surveillance: A Threat to Democracy

#11

Post by burntsushi »

malkia wrote: post #7
clarkmoody wrote: post #3

It would be nice if people realized that the United States was built upon the premise that the individual is sovereign, not the states. Your rights come from God, not government. Many think they have all the freedom they need, since they can drive (most places) with no papers and download whatever apps they want on their phones. The government is heading down a very dangerous path and has been for a long time. Member…

I'm an atheist, there is no God for me.

There's no God for me either, but isn't that a pedantic point? I think it could just as easily read as

> Your rights come from our nature, not government.

Re: Surveillance: A Threat to Democracy

#13

Post by comefrom10 »

unclebucknasty wrote: post #9

> The issue is not whether the government should vigorously pursue terrorists. The question is whether the security goals can be achieved by less-intrusive or sweeping means, without trampling on democratic freedoms and basic rights... There is another issue that hasn't been discussed enough, and this quote from the article simultaneously refers to the need to discuss "balance" between security and freedom, while als…

There's a very interesting video about 9/11 that every American really, really, really should watch put out by a group called Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth.

"9/11: Explosive Evidence - Experts Speak Out": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddz2mw2vaEg

Re: Surveillance: A Threat to Democracy

#14

Post by Udo »

unclebucknasty wrote: post #9

> The issue is not whether the government should vigorously pursue terrorists. The question is whether the security goals can be achieved by less-intrusive or sweeping means, without trampling on democratic freedoms and basic rights... There is another issue that hasn't been discussed enough, and this quote from the article simultaneously refers to the need to discuss "balance" between security and freedom, while als…

On that note, if the US had a 9/11 event every month, that would still be less dead people than we lose to suicides, which was at 1.6% the number 10 cause of all deaths in 2010. Of course, every death is one too many, but imagine we put the same amount of money into mental health research and treatment that we are currently pumping into the by-definition-unwinnable "war on terror".

Less people die by terror than by any remotely significant event category. I imagine the last few years will go down in the history books as a good example why the primary product of terror is fear and hysteria, and direct damage caused is purely incidental. Of course the indirect damage terrorized societies do to themselves is stupendously expansive.

Re: Surveillance: A Threat to Democracy

#15

Post by slg »

alexqgb wrote: post #10
malkia wrote: post #6

If surveilance threathens your choice, then it's a threat to the democracy, but then US has never been a real democracy, but a representative one. As such it's congresmen and senators that might be threatened by it since the do our real voting for us.

Uh, thanks, but intelligent, educated people who are attentive to civic life (e.g. a significant portion of the HN readership) don't need to have the difference between a pure democracy and a representative one spelled out in detail each and every time the word "democracy" comes up in conversation.

I think it is important in this instance because that is the real heart of the problem. The US government is increasingly making decisions that go against public opinion. Something like PRISM would have a much higher chance of getting through Congress than being approved by national referendum. It seems like at some point the US government has gone from ruling on behalf of the people to simply ruling the people.

Re: Surveillance: A Threat to Democracy

#16

Post by jivatmanx »

clarkmoody wrote: post #3

It would be nice if people realized that the United States was built upon the premise that the individual is sovereign, not the states. Your rights come from God, not government. Many think they have all the freedom they need, since they can drive (most places) with no papers and download whatever apps they want on their phones. The government is heading down a very dangerous path and has been for a long time. Member…

When people use the "Nothing to hide", or "The government does not care about your cat videos, this is the equivalent of: I'm not using my liberty, so I don't care about it.

The government may not be interested in you specifically, but they are interested in the more influential figures who share those same opinions. The HBGary leak revealed the targeting of Glenn Greenwald, and surely you're aware of MLK. What if he had had some minor personal failing, and the FBI had used it against him to derail his movement?

Re: Surveillance: A Threat to Democracy

#17

Post by tokenadult »

comefrom10 wrote: post #13
unclebucknasty wrote: post #9

> The issue is not whether the government should vigorously pursue terrorists. The question is whether the security goals can be achieved by less-intrusive or sweeping means, without trampling on democratic freedoms and basic rights... There is another issue that hasn't been discussed enough, and this quote from the article simultaneously refers to the need to discuss "balance" between security and freedom, while als…

There's a very interesting video about 9/11 that every American really, really, really should watch put out by a group called Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth. "9/11: Explosive Evidence - Experts Speak Out": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddz2mw2vaEg

I recommend that you read better sources:

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-09-11/

Re: Surveillance: A Threat to Democracy

#18

Post by comefrom10 »

tokenadult wrote: post #17
comefrom10 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a very interesting video about 9/11 that every American really, really, really should watch put out by a group called Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth. "9/11: Explosive Evidence - Experts Speak Out": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddz2mw2vaEg

I recommend that you read better sources: http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-09-11/

Have you watched the video?

Re: Surveillance: A Threat to Democracy

#19

Post by gnaritas »

clarkmoody wrote: post #3

It would be nice if people realized that the United States was built upon the premise that the individual is sovereign, not the states. Your rights come from God, not government. Many think they have all the freedom they need, since they can drive (most places) with no papers and download whatever apps they want on their phones. The government is heading down a very dangerous path and has been for a long time. Member…

> Your rights come from God, not government.

No, my rights come what the people are willing to fight for and establish with government. Absent government, there are no rights, there is only what I'm willing to claim my rights are and what I can defend. There is no God and nature doesn't create rights.

Re: Surveillance: A Threat to Democracy

#20

Post by gnaritas »

burntsushi wrote: post #11
malkia wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an atheist, there is no God for me.

There's no God for me either, but isn't that a pedantic point? I think it could just as easily read as > Your rights come from our nature , not government.

Reading it that way doesn't make it make any more sense.
Post reply on HN