Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 103 posts

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#81

Post by lifeformed »

Shivetya wrote: post #11

What annoys me is that just watching the various government agencies, IRS, NSA, FBI, and others, is that there is a pattern of not telling the public the truth, they lie to Congress as well. How is it that our own government agencies can lie to Congress with near impunity? It is like disrespect has become second nature to government. They do not respect us nor do they respect other agencies within the same. Too big t…

Why is it legal for public officials to knowingly lie with intent to deceive, in a public setting? I feel like that should be a basic rule for politics. There should be legal repercussions to the things public officials intend with what they say (proportional to their claims).

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#82

Post by rhizome »

dragonwriter wrote: post #44
CamperBob2 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you won't listen to, say, people convicted of minor drug crimes, or who have otherwise been disenfranchised for any of a wide variety of reasons, some good and some not-so-good?

I think most people who make the "people who don't vote..." argument pretty clearly mean "people who choose not to vote", not "people who are denied the opportunity to vote".

So in order for a piece of criticism to be valid, the critic must divulge their voting record and whether it has been affected by convictions?

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#83

Post by crusso »

rhizome wrote: post #72
mtgx wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you should be even more outraged about the fact that Congress doesn't really seem to care that they lied to them. Because if that continues, then we have a pretty big problem here. Where are all the impeachments and swift punishments from Congress? By not punishing them, it just makes it ok for the next guy to do it.

Where are all the impeachments and swift punishments from Congress? They're all in on it. Note today the GOP saying what interest they have in oversight, while Obama is just continuing what they supported under Bush and what Democrats are supporting under Obama. It's the same thing, the sides just switch based on elections, but the behavior of the government (all of them) remains the same. It's an anti-Constitutional…

Not that I approved of what happened under the Bush administration either, but it's important to note that it's not the same thing either.

The public was specifically told during the Bush administration that only specific international calls were being monitored to suspected terrorists overseas.

Now we have a blanket collection of all phone call data foreign and domestic. This is definitely worse than what was happening under Bush (as far as we were told).

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#84

Post by grappler »

I'm curious why I haven't seen any talk about porn.

Wait, seriously. Come back for a second. Porn.

We all know a significant fraction of internet traffic is porn. Most men probably watch it. Perhaps also a large fraction of women.

How much you want to bet the NSA knows lots and lots about people's porn habits. Maybe they know exactly what percentage of men and women watch it, browse it, and/or read it.

After all, if you want to threaten, embarrass or otherwise manipulate somebody, knowing their porn habits would probably be a good start.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#85

Post by enraged_camel »

Shivetya wrote: post #11

What annoys me is that just watching the various government agencies, IRS, NSA, FBI, and others, is that there is a pattern of not telling the public the truth, they lie to Congress as well. How is it that our own government agencies can lie to Congress with near impunity? It is like disrespect has become second nature to government. They do not respect us nor do they respect other agencies within the same. Too big t…

Because the only thing members of Congress care about is being re-elected. And for that, being able to say "we held hearings about the IRS/NSA/FBI scandals" is good enough.

Remember: in politics, results don't matter. The only thing that matters is the successfully giving the perception of working towards results. People who like to actually deliver results don't go into politics. They go into the private sector.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#86

Post by LoganCale »

crusso wrote: post #83
rhizome wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are all the impeachments and swift punishments from Congress? They're all in on it. Note today the GOP saying what interest they have in oversight, while Obama is just continuing what they supported under Bush and what Democrats are supporting under Obama. It's the same thing, the sides just switch based on elections, but the behavior of the government (all of them) remains the same. It's an anti-Constitutional…

Not that I approved of what happened under the Bush administration either, but it's important to note that it's not the same thing either. The public was specifically told during the Bush administration that only specific international calls were being monitored to suspected terrorists overseas. Now we have a blanket collection of all phone call data foreign and domestic. This is definitely worse than what was happen…

As far as we can tell, blanket collection happened under Bush too, they just never publicly admitted it.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#87

Post by JumpCrisscross »

We may have a decent time looking at NSA employees' trading histories for suspicious activity. They are a large, secretive organisation populated by smart people who have access to privileged information and who operate on the assumption of immunity. If you could channel public fury over Libor, TBTF, etc. at the NSA it would give the Obama administration even less of a platform to stand on.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#88

Post by joering2 »

I believe the worst is still to come up to light: that Obama used his friendship with Schmitt and others that sit on the table during his dinner with CEOs of the biggest IT companies to get pinpointed data on all americans that were not sure how to vote in the second therm. That list was priceless and in the presidency race of 2012 would give Obama huge and unfair competitive edge against Romney. Criminal edge I should say.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#89

Post by oleganza »

olalonde wrote: post #31
oleganza wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those who do not vote have the right to complain. And those who do, also have the right because everyone is brainwashed. Government is not some magical entity, it is a group of armed bandits who claim to represent the whole society for the "common good" at each individual's expense. It's just religious excuse. People do not deserve to be threatened to surrender property, secrets and liberties that they arrange freely…

> Saying "you deserve your government" is like saying "you deserve to be raped because you didn't try to avoid it hard enough". I meant Americans as a group, not the individuals. Also, while I mostly agree with you, I certainly hope you do not get into politics. This kind of discourse is fine amongst people who are already like minded but will assuredly fail to convince anyone who does not already share your ideas. I…

Americans as a group do not exist. It's a conceptual label. Individuals exist. And if your analysis of what's good for a "group" leads to suffering of individuals, you have some problem. My view of the "group" can be different from yours. To me all people are people, without nations and colors determining "rights" and morality. Who's right?

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#90

Post by oleganza »

olalonde wrote: post #31
oleganza wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those who do not vote have the right to complain. And those who do, also have the right because everyone is brainwashed. Government is not some magical entity, it is a group of armed bandits who claim to represent the whole society for the "common good" at each individual's expense. It's just religious excuse. People do not deserve to be threatened to surrender property, secrets and liberties that they arrange freely…

> Saying "you deserve your government" is like saying "you deserve to be raped because you didn't try to avoid it hard enough". I meant Americans as a group, not the individuals. Also, while I mostly agree with you, I certainly hope you do not get into politics. This kind of discourse is fine amongst people who are already like minded but will assuredly fail to convince anyone who does not already share your ideas. I…

I'm not going into politics. People cannot be convinced. Only practical solutions can make certain moral claims irrelevant. E.g. internet makes it irrelevant to discuss "is it good for people to read these heretical books". People will read them anyway. With Bitcoin it will become irrelevant to discuss if money should or should not be inflated. It simply won't be. (If Bitcoin succeeds, of course.) If it's impossible to collect certain taxes, it would be irrelevant to discuss if it's good or bad. People will pay them voluntarily if they like, not under threat as of today.
Post reply on HN