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Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

nytimes.com

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Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#71

Post by dclowd9901 »

hanifvirani wrote: post #20

When this issue came out, I was really hoping that the people will rise and big changes will finally happen. But now I realize that it was just wishful thinking. For any real big positive changes to occur, there first needs to be a change at the root level, and by that I mean the way people think. The government doing this is a big problem, sure. But the majority of people don't even care, and that I think is a much…

People will only rise up and get upset when they're denied their status quos.

Let's talk about it economically. To effect real change, there would have to be a huge shift in the number of upset and angry people. So one or two of a few things would have to happen:

1) right now, most people are working from paycheck to paycheck. They have no buffer, no savings, no freedom from their day job. In fact, they are sacrificing more and more basics just to have the privilege of a job. How do you expect them to find the time to rally?

2) Probably near half the people in the US believe they have nothing to hide and thus shouldn't care about these issues. Something very significant would have to happen to many of them to get them to take action on it. Just by the nature of intelligence, this is likely outside the realm of reality.

3) what's left after throwing all your time and energy at your work and dealing with torturous bureaucracies? Whatever it is that makes life worth living. Your family, entertainment, food; whatever it is, a person just wants to enjoy these things for the little time they have on this planet. When trying to wrangle an entrenched insititution like the US government seems like it would take an entire lifetime to make happen, people evaluate their lives and make that calculus. Most find its just not worth it.

I don't really know what the answer is except to say that for anything to happen, probably at least two of those three things have to affect most people in a negative way.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#72

Post by rhizome »

mtgx wrote: post #13
Shivetya wrote: post #11

What annoys me is that just watching the various government agencies, IRS, NSA, FBI, and others, is that there is a pattern of not telling the public the truth, they lie to Congress as well. How is it that our own government agencies can lie to Congress with near impunity? It is like disrespect has become second nature to government. They do not respect us nor do they respect other agencies within the same. Too big t…

I think you should be even more outraged about the fact that Congress doesn't really seem to care that they lied to them. Because if that continues, then we have a pretty big problem here. Where are all the impeachments and swift punishments from Congress? By not punishing them, it just makes it ok for the next guy to do it.

Where are all the impeachments and swift punishments from Congress?

They're all in on it. Note today the GOP saying what interest they have in oversight, while Obama is just continuing what they supported under Bush and what Democrats are supporting under Obama. It's the same thing, the sides just switch based on elections, but the behavior of the government (all of them) remains the same. It's an anti-Constitutional racket.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#73

Post by youngerdryas »

dllthomas wrote: post #17
mtgx wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you should be even more outraged about the fact that Congress doesn't really seem to care that they lied to them. Because if that continues, then we have a pretty big problem here. Where are all the impeachments and swift punishments from Congress? By not punishing them, it just makes it ok for the next guy to do it.

I'm not sure the process should be too swift. Otherwise agreed, though.

We should do it now before the story is discredited.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#74

Post by ilaksh »

I see the state as basically being a _really_ official Mafia. They are the government because they have a virtual monopoly on deadly force.

If more people understood what the wars were actually about then they would have much more realistic expectations (none) in regards to the ethicality or legality of state actions.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#75

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

Shivetya wrote: post #11

What annoys me is that just watching the various government agencies, IRS, NSA, FBI, and others, is that there is a pattern of not telling the public the truth, they lie to Congress as well. How is it that our own government agencies can lie to Congress with near impunity? It is like disrespect has become second nature to government. They do not respect us nor do they respect other agencies within the same. Too big t…

Congress itself has been in on the lie the whole time to at least a small degree. Some willingly, and some perhaps not so much. Don't forget that this is exactly the sort of thing that Americans wanted the gov't to do, "keep us safe from the terrorists" I don't find the material leaked so far to be more compelling or worrying than prior leaks about the subject. The only difference I see so far is that the press suddenly cares, and that we've been promised more in the coming days. I do find it suspicious on the part of the gov't that there has been such a strong immediate effort to focus on and discredit Snowden, where prior leaks were almost ignored. But that's just my initial gut feeling.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#76

Post by jeremyjh »

l33tbro wrote: post #41
mtgx wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you should be even more outraged about the fact that Congress doesn't really seem to care that they lied to them. Because if that continues, then we have a pretty big problem here. Where are all the impeachments and swift punishments from Congress? By not punishing them, it just makes it ok for the next guy to do it.

First the GFC architects getting away with tearing down the financial system, and now the NSA carelessly violating Congress without repercussion. It disgusts me that America has come to this. Why do we, the people, allow such anarchy in the halls of power, yet relinquish all freedom in the streets and online? I'm no long-hair, but this is our government. Why do we keep installing these criminals to throne?

If we don't vote for a lizard, one of the wrong lizards might get in.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#77

Post by joonix »

ilaksh wrote: post #74

I see the state as basically being a _really_ official Mafia. They are the government because they have a virtual monopoly on deadly force. If more people understood what the wars were actually about then they would have much more realistic expectations (none) in regards to the ethicality or legality of state actions.

Given that the vast majority of American support this type of surveillance in the name of fighting "terrorism," democracy appears to be working. You should blame the electorate.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#78

Post by dragonwriter »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #69
dragonwriter wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, its not. Your choice might be limited and imperfect -- and if you think that's the case and are bothered by it than you should be engaged in efforts to change the system that creates that problem as well as voting -- but that limited and imperfect choice is not the same thing as being disenfranchised.

At which point we've crossed into "Matter of opinion" territory.

As soon as you started using subjective terms like "very much" and "convincingly", yes, it was in matter of opinion territory. But if you ask a question with terms which inherently call for an opinion, you can't (justifiably, at least) complain that the response is in "matter of opinion" territory.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#79

Post by conroe64 »

conroe64 wrote: post #52

There probably won't be any prosecution because Snowden most likely defected to the Chinese government. It may have been his plan all along. I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who would love to leave their families, and be considered a hero by the general public, and live their life comfortably in another country. Given all the secrets he probably has that he hasn't released, he would be a very valuable res…

Regarding the modding, I guess the group think is still in the doe eyed fanatical allegiance phase.. and hasn't reached the bitter disappointment and finger pointing stage yet.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#80

Post by rhizome »

oftenwrong wrote: post #49
hanifvirani wrote: post #20

When this issue came out, I was really hoping that the people will rise and big changes will finally happen. But now I realize that it was just wishful thinking. For any real big positive changes to occur, there first needs to be a change at the root level, and by that I mean the way people think. The government doing this is a big problem, sure. But the majority of people don't even care, and that I think is a much…

Even worse, a lot of Americans seem to see Snowden as a traitor.

Irrelevant. The question is whether these programs are legal.
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