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Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

nytimes.com

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Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#61

Post by bmelton »

trebor wrote: post #58
mtgx wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you should be even more outraged about the fact that Congress doesn't really seem to care that they lied to them. Because if that continues, then we have a pretty big problem here. Where are all the impeachments and swift punishments from Congress? By not punishing them, it just makes it ok for the next guy to do it.

I know a retired NSA analyst. When I asked him what he thought of the NSA wiretaps, etc, he was silent for a bit. Then he said one of the most important things I've heard politically (paraphrased, I wish I wrote it down): > The organization is only as good as its administrative head, and the NSA I served in was widely different from the one that exists today. The problem is that the administration, the Congress, the…

The obvious counterpoint to your last question is "Why shouldn't we punish our intelligence agencies just because we don't hold our elected officials accountable."

Two rights don't make a wrong, and that argument is just as specious as those who argue that "Well there are already infringements on the second amendment, why shouldn't there be infringements on the fourth?" Logical fallacies notwithstanding, the real question is why don't we hold more elected officials and their appointees accountable? Because it is they who we entrust to police themselves.

The problem is that there are too few punishments meted out, and if we continue to allow our elected officials and their appointees to do what they like without fear of reprisal, it can only get worse.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#62

Post by trebor »

bmelton wrote: post #61
trebor wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know a retired NSA analyst. When I asked him what he thought of the NSA wiretaps, etc, he was silent for a bit. Then he said one of the most important things I've heard politically (paraphrased, I wish I wrote it down): > The organization is only as good as its administrative head, and the NSA I served in was widely different from the one that exists today. The problem is that the administration, the Congress, the…

The obvious counterpoint to your last question is "Why shouldn't we punish our intelligence agencies just because we don't hold our elected officials accountable." Two rights don't make a wrong, and that argument is just as specious as those who argue that "Well there are already infringements on the second amendment, why shouldn't there be infringements on the fourth?" Logical fallacies notwithstanding, the real que…

I agree. I asked that last question because I doubt the American public these days. The politicians that enabled these fiascos deserve every bit the same punishment as the organization(s) that overstepped their proper bounds. I hope both are punished. But at the end of the day, I doubt that either will get what they deserve.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#63

Post by wittyphrasehere »

junto wrote: post #18
pknight wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What purpose do comments as these serve to you? Encourage other people to be sheep? Such a small minded attitude to have, if you ask me. And insulting to all the people throughout history that time after time have sought to bring change, successfully and unsuccessfully. We all have pessimistic attitudes, but to make pointless comments like these, to me, it's like pollution; better to be a leader, no matter how small…

I'm being pragmatic. I would loved to be proved wrong, but history shows us otherwise.

What do you mean by "history shows us otherwise?" Are you saying that all power structures created by humans have continued to rule indefinitely? History actually shows us the opposite, unless I misunderstood what you meant. Genuinely curious.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#64

Post by DennisP »

junto wrote: post #3

In my honest opinion, I truly believe that this ship has sailed. It is too late to turn back now. Too much money and too much value has been had from these systems for these black projects to be switched off. They will not budge and those systems will never be switched off. I would bet my last dollar on that premise. Our only choice is to accept this and live in the knowledge that we are always being watched, or go a…

I think the value is questionable. Much of the money could be recovered by selling off the hardware or reusing it for something else. It's probably just lots of commodity equipment.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#65

Post by judah »

Shivetya wrote: post #11

What annoys me is that just watching the various government agencies, IRS, NSA, FBI, and others, is that there is a pattern of not telling the public the truth, they lie to Congress as well. How is it that our own government agencies can lie to Congress with near impunity? It is like disrespect has become second nature to government. They do not respect us nor do they respect other agencies within the same. Too big t…

"The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen."

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#66

Post by trotsky »

In a state where even corporate malfesance is rarely pursued and even more rarely punished beyond fines that can be considered a cost of doing business, exactly which of our agencies, representatives or judicial systems are we expecting to perform such an investigation?

At least from my memory, It's varey rare to see a go-get-em special prosecutor attached to anything that didn't have a partisan political origin. And neither of the parties are anti-surveillance - the last thing they want to do is ruin their next chance at bat with it.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#67

Post by trotsky »

trebor wrote: post #58
mtgx wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you should be even more outraged about the fact that Congress doesn't really seem to care that they lied to them. Because if that continues, then we have a pretty big problem here. Where are all the impeachments and swift punishments from Congress? By not punishing them, it just makes it ok for the next guy to do it.

I know a retired NSA analyst. When I asked him what he thought of the NSA wiretaps, etc, he was silent for a bit. Then he said one of the most important things I've heard politically (paraphrased, I wish I wrote it down): > The organization is only as good as its administrative head, and the NSA I served in was widely different from the one that exists today. The problem is that the administration, the Congress, the…

I agree that the blame is shared - the appeal of ubiquitous surveillance and related is just too great for any executive branch to resist at least right now. I'm not entirely sure about congress, I think mostly they're just easily manipulated.

But, I know quite a few folks who work for fort meade both govies and contractors, and it seems pretty clear to me that the nsa has significantly mutated in terms of their internal culture, goals and morality in the last 20 years. Primarily 2001+. I think most of them would agree with that though they might not consider it as bad as I do.

Based on how gen Alexander frequently takes his narrative straight to the press (+10 2-3 full page section A stories in the washington post in the last 12 months alone) and some other factors I honestly believe that organization has a life of its own and would at least take an unusual amount of effort to train.

Comparing them to the CIA it's very telling. WHile the CIA has traditionally done a lot of shit and been the "cowboys" if you will, they give the impression of an organization (today) that is much less prone to systemically "go rogue".

Not that I'm implying the NSA programs aren't with executive branch blessing. Just that if by some miracle you got someone running the show that didn't want to spy on every item on the earth, they might find it pretty hard to shut down the machine.

My (uninformed opinion) is that it mostly came from the sick, sick amounts of money they started getting post 911 as a big part - someone who knows the situation pretty well guessed that they may in fact be up 600% in total buget (combined) as compared to around y2k. The second biggest factor was the intelligance community reorginization 10ish years ago that created the DNI and has everyone including the NSA and CIA reporting to them. As an outsider, it seems the DNI never quite managed to be a strong enough organization to keep these proudly independent orgs under their control and working together. Both groups were thus left to do battle and arguable the NSA won at least budget wise, though CIA ultimately managed to bypass their boss and regain a quasi-independant status at least with Obama.

The last bit is tech, even though it's obvious. Things are just sickly out of balance now in terms of ease of surveillance, data storage, etc in favor of the eavesdroppers. It's like taking a junkie who's been pretty functional for 20 years and locking them in a room with unlimited drugs, strippers and so much money they make it rain just by walking. Who could resist?

Whatever other mistakes are being made (and there are plenty) the NSA is a big, lumbering, arrogant agency filled with political power. We've got to shoot it in the head and start over.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#68

Post by robomartin »

One way I think about this is the parallel with unions.

The fundamental concept of unions and collective bargaining are good and, if you will, wholesome. There are working environments where it would be difficult to have a voice without such a facility in place.

However, it is my opinion that, unions have degenerated into virtual viruses that kill their hosts. Unions have optimized their side of the equation to such an extent that they are now absolutely deadly for both industry and government. The simplest example of this are the ridiculous benefit and pension packages they have obtained. These packages are mathematically impossible to sustain without hurting both their host and people outside the union. Imagine hiring an employee, paying them above industry average and then having to continue paying them 90% of that salary for life once they retire.

How does that happen? Are these organizations evil? Are the people evil?

Well, no, the people in the unions, the average union member is not evil at all. Tese are generally good folks just like anyone else in the country, union or not.

Where is the evil?

At some level it is in the union's management. Perhaps not explicitly. Again, most of the people running unions are probably just as nice as anyone else.

The evil really resides in the system and its interaction with other systems. Union leadership and me bership seek to optimize the deals they make looking mostly only at their criteria: more money, more benefits, protections, etc. taken to an extreme this leads to evolving a "virus" genetically coded to kill the host.

Part of this is facilitated by incompetent negotiators on the other side of the table, particularly in government.

That was a long setup to draw a parallel between unions and government agencies entrusted with national security.

The vast majority of the people who work for these agencies are good people. The failure is in the system of rules that they operate under and, perhaps, a failure to, just like unions, look way beyond self needs and consider a sphere beyond theirs and a timeline far into the future.

In the end it is a failure in the leadership of these organizations. They all work for the executive branch, which means the buck stops with the President.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#69

Post by CamperBob2 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #54
CamperBob2 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But since it's already been convincingly argued that our "opportunity" to vote just gets us carbon copies of the same policies, isn't that very much like being denied the opportunity to vote in the first place?

No, its not. Your choice might be limited and imperfect -- and if you think that's the case and are bothered by it than you should be engaged in efforts to change the system that creates that problem as well as voting -- but that limited and imperfect choice is not the same thing as being disenfranchised.

At which point we've crossed into "Matter of opinion" territory.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#70

Post by kunai »

l33tbro wrote: post #41
mtgx wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you should be even more outraged about the fact that Congress doesn't really seem to care that they lied to them. Because if that continues, then we have a pretty big problem here. Where are all the impeachments and swift punishments from Congress? By not punishing them, it just makes it ok for the next guy to do it.

First the GFC architects getting away with tearing down the financial system, and now the NSA carelessly violating Congress without repercussion. It disgusts me that America has come to this. Why do we, the people, allow such anarchy in the halls of power, yet relinquish all freedom in the streets and online? I'm no long-hair, but this is our government. Why do we keep installing these criminals to throne?

Two words:

mainstream media.

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