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Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

nytimes.com

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Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#51

Post by CamperBob2 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #44
CamperBob2 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you won't listen to, say, people convicted of minor drug crimes, or who have otherwise been disenfranchised for any of a wide variety of reasons, some good and some not-so-good?

I think most people who make the "people who don't vote..." argument pretty clearly mean "people who choose not to vote", not "people who are denied the opportunity to vote".

But since it's already been convincingly argued that our "opportunity" to vote just gets us carbon copies of the same policies, isn't that very much like being denied the opportunity to vote in the first place?

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#52

Post by conroe64 »

There probably won't be any prosecution because Snowden most likely defected to the Chinese government. It may have been his plan all along. I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who would love to leave their families, and be considered a hero by the general public, and live their life comfortably in another country. Given all the secrets he probably has that he hasn't released, he would be a very valuable resource to China.

This is something someone in his position would know how to do, safely, and with a great reward to himself, given that he's probably read the outcomes of hundreds of informants defecting to other countries.

And given his CIA background, he knew enough about propaganda to know how to sell it to keep his family from being shamed by being related to a defector.

The idea that a guy that's smart enough to make 6 figures after not graduating high school can't plan far enough ahead to explain why he went to China is ludicrous. He's simply not telling the truth about his motives.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#53

Post by l33tbro »

hanifvirani wrote: post #20

When this issue came out, I was really hoping that the people will rise and big changes will finally happen. But now I realize that it was just wishful thinking. For any real big positive changes to occur, there first needs to be a change at the root level, and by that I mean the way people think. The government doing this is a big problem, sure. But the majority of people don't even care, and that I think is a much…

I wish the "nothing to hide" people would just actually stop and think outside their myopic b.s.

Look, from what I've been seeing in the last few days (mostly from talking to friends), the "nothing to hide" people are usually white, middle-upper class, and citizens of the USA.

But let's try this: get out of your privileged world for a moment and pretend, just for a second, that you are a Middle-Eastern American. This is where shit gets pretty real.

Why? Because the reality is that with every email, telephone conversation, and internet search you ever commit to - you will pretty much always be censoring yourself in the back of your mind if the government may misinterpret what you are doing. One search term, one "trigger word" on a phone call, and you could be finding yourself having to defend yourself against some very serious allegations.

This is why PRISM is a completely INSANE breach of freedoms. Given that so much of human communication is now conveyed electronically, this is such a huge loss of freedom for those who are being racially and religiously profiled.

FYI, I'm a white dude. But if I had to seriously self-censor every every email, phone call, and text I wrote for fear of persecution - the US would feel to me like Syria with MTV.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#54

Post by dragonwriter »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #51
dragonwriter wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most people who make the "people who don't vote..." argument pretty clearly mean "people who choose not to vote", not "people who are denied the opportunity to vote".

But since it's already been convincingly argued that our "opportunity" to vote just gets us carbon copies of the same policies, isn't that very much like being denied the opportunity to vote in the first place?

No, its not. Your choice might be limited and imperfect -- and if you think that's the case and are bothered by it than you should be engaged in efforts to change the system that creates that problem as well as voting -- but that limited and imperfect choice is not the same thing as being disenfranchised.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#55

Post by beeneto »

conroe64 wrote: post #52

There probably won't be any prosecution because Snowden most likely defected to the Chinese government. It may have been his plan all along. I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who would love to leave their families, and be considered a hero by the general public, and live their life comfortably in another country. Given all the secrets he probably has that he hasn't released, he would be a very valuable res…

> Snowden most likely defected to the Chinese government

I keep reading this hypothesis

Am I right in thinking that it still has no evidence to support it whatsoever, excluding the fact that he announced his identity while in a Hong Kong hotel?

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#56

Post by alan_cx »

junto wrote: post #3

In my honest opinion, I truly believe that this ship has sailed. It is too late to turn back now. Too much money and too much value has been had from these systems for these black projects to be switched off. They will not budge and those systems will never be switched off. I would bet my last dollar on that premise. Our only choice is to accept this and live in the knowledge that we are always being watched, or go a…

No one is suggesting that the NSA or these system should or would go, even many would like to see that happen.

The whole point is over-sight, and making these spooks follow the laws of the land.

See, the point is we can all see and debate these laws and rules. We don't need to know about the operations of the NSA as long as we have confidence in the rules, over-sight and enforcement.

Here is my problem: When was the last time any of us, US or non US, heard of a senior spook employee sacked and jailed for breaking the laws governing their work, with out it becoming public first as an accusation in the media? The real problem is the closed loop shop which only respects the law one some one out side of the closed shop discovers the law breaking.

The over sight is totally broken, and worse still there is literally zero incentive for it to be fixed.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#57

Post by IanDrake »

l33tbro wrote: post #41
mtgx wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you should be even more outraged about the fact that Congress doesn't really seem to care that they lied to them. Because if that continues, then we have a pretty big problem here. Where are all the impeachments and swift punishments from Congress? By not punishing them, it just makes it ok for the next guy to do it.

First the GFC architects getting away with tearing down the financial system, and now the NSA carelessly violating Congress without repercussion. It disgusts me that America has come to this. Why do we, the people, allow such anarchy in the halls of power, yet relinquish all freedom in the streets and online? I'm no long-hair, but this is our government. Why do we keep installing these criminals to throne?

Because the people we need to elect are branded as "dangerous" and "naive" by the media. And people listen.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#58

Post by trebor »

mtgx wrote: post #13
Shivetya wrote: post #11

What annoys me is that just watching the various government agencies, IRS, NSA, FBI, and others, is that there is a pattern of not telling the public the truth, they lie to Congress as well. How is it that our own government agencies can lie to Congress with near impunity? It is like disrespect has become second nature to government. They do not respect us nor do they respect other agencies within the same. Too big t…

I think you should be even more outraged about the fact that Congress doesn't really seem to care that they lied to them. Because if that continues, then we have a pretty big problem here. Where are all the impeachments and swift punishments from Congress? By not punishing them, it just makes it ok for the next guy to do it.

I know a retired NSA analyst. When I asked him what he thought of the NSA wiretaps, etc, he was silent for a bit. Then he said one of the most important things I've heard politically (paraphrased, I wish I wrote it down):

> The organization is only as good as its administrative head, and the NSA I served in was widely different from the one that exists today.

The problem is that the administration, the Congress, the Senate, the Judicial System, and the intelligence agencies (with some of the law enforcement agencies) have lost their integrity. The ends do not justify the means. Lying to the American public which put them in power is the ultimate breach of faith. Not only are these things usually secret, but when revealed they are outright lied about.

Why would we punish intelligence agencies for something we don't hold either the administration or our elected officials to? They're all dishonest.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#59

Post by loceng »

Shivetya wrote: post #11

What annoys me is that just watching the various government agencies, IRS, NSA, FBI, and others, is that there is a pattern of not telling the public the truth, they lie to Congress as well. How is it that our own government agencies can lie to Congress with near impunity? It is like disrespect has become second nature to government. They do not respect us nor do they respect other agencies within the same. Too big t…

Terrifying. Really.

Re: Before Prosecuting, Investigate the Government

#60

Post by bmelton »

l33tbro wrote: post #53
hanifvirani wrote: post #20

When this issue came out, I was really hoping that the people will rise and big changes will finally happen. But now I realize that it was just wishful thinking. For any real big positive changes to occur, there first needs to be a change at the root level, and by that I mean the way people think. The government doing this is a big problem, sure. But the majority of people don't even care, and that I think is a much…

I wish the "nothing to hide" people would just actually stop and think outside their myopic b.s. Look, from what I've been seeing in the last few days (mostly from talking to friends), the "nothing to hide" people are usually white, middle-upper class, and citizens of the USA. But let's try this: get out of your privileged world for a moment and pretend, just for a second, that you are a Middle-Eastern American. This…

"When human beings are scared and feel everything is exposed to the government, we will censor ourselves from free thinking", Ai Weiwei
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