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Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

reuters.com

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Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#81

Post by lostlogin »

fwenzel wrote: post #74
lostlogin wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you joking?

No. I am just seeing a difference between occupation and having troops from foreign allies stationed on one's soil. If all non-local troops are "occupation" in your book, then I guess the US are occupying South Korea also? And Italy? And Israel?

Now I see what you mean - I mistook the bit you wanted a citation for. Now I get it, even if your point was 100% correct, there must have been a point when the foreign troops in Germany went from occupation to (?) stationed..?

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#82

Post by lostlogin »

rz2k wrote: post #40
Cass wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing surprising about the German tolerance of the US military bases, considering that they do nothing whatsoever to interfere with our lives or inconvenience us in any way, but do provide quite a lot of jobs. These are mostly medical or training facilities, many of them operated jointly by American and German forces, not some occupying force that's intent on overrunning our government or controlling the ci…

It is also worth pointing out that the occupation of Germany ended in 1955. The US military has a policy of being forward deployed around the globe, so it negotiates agreements with may countries around the world to station troops in strategic locations. The military bases are there as a result of legal agreements and treaties, not because they would forcibly resist any attempts to expel them, and there is no sentime…

No military bases in Iraq.. I'd better get with the times, good point. Got the hell out of that mess - the same will be said of Afghanistan shortly.

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#83

Post by digitalengineer »

pekk wrote: post #53
TallGuyShort wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany itself isn't the only reason I doubt the US would attack Germany. If the US attacked Germany, I'm sure most of Europe would side with Germany at this point. So it would be akin to attacking all of Europe. Not something that's worth a single NSA leak, I'm sure.

Why is everyone in this discussion assuming that the US would be attacking Germany if not for the awesome deterrent power of the EU? Seriously?

Sounds crazy but the US has plans to IN-f*cking-VADE Germany's neighbour, the Netherlands if they were ever to do a crazy thing, like arrest US soldiers for war crimes and bring them to the International Tribunal.

..."The Hague Invasion Act,[3][4] since such freeing of US citizens by force might only be possible through an invasion of The Hague, Netherlands, the seat of several international criminal courts and the seat of the Dutch government."

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pro...

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#84

Post by NameNickHN »

bejar37 wrote: post #26

Honestly, I'm starting to feel like the lack of comments from European leaders about the infringement of non-American's data might be because they know they might be the next to get caught with their hands in the honey pot. I can't tell if I'm just starting to be part of the tin-foil hat crowd though.

If they could, they would implement something like PRISM as fast as possible. The German parliament tries for years now to establish data collection.

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#85

Post by fallenhitokiri »

woah wrote: post #2

Not surprising. With the Gestapo, and then the Stasi, the Germans have an extensive cultural memory of the effects of comprehensive government surveillance of their lives. They are still surprisingly tolerant of the long term military occupation of their country by the US. It would have been interesting if Snowden had holed up in Germany instead of HK. I wonder if the inevitable US military extradition would have tes…

I think tolerate is the wrong word.

I live and grew up near on of the military bases. If I would not have met some people stationed there and had the chance to visit them I would only have known there is a big area which is well guarded.

There is and was no incident I am aware of involving someone from the US military which could have put them in a bad light.

Even people I know, who are strictly against military forces and war, do not really care.

From my point of view, and I think I am not alone with this one, it is pretty simple. They live there, do their jobs, do not cause trouble and provide jobs. Without considering taxes and other things it is like a branch of an American company.

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#86

Post by sgift »

lostlogin wrote: post #81
fwenzel wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. I am just seeing a difference between occupation and having troops from foreign allies stationed on one's soil. If all non-local troops are "occupation" in your book, then I guess the US are occupying South Korea also? And Italy? And Israel?

Now I see what you mean - I mistook the bit you wanted a citation for. Now I get it, even if your point was 100% correct, there must have been a point when the foreign troops in Germany went from occupation to (?) stationed..?

Yes, 1954/55: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_and_Paris_Conferences

"The London and Paris Conferences were two related conferences in London and Paris in September–October 1954, that decided about full sovereignty of West Germany, ending of its occupation, and its admittance to NATO."

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#87

Post by tekromancr »

Cass wrote: post #16
woah wrote: post #2

Not surprising. With the Gestapo, and then the Stasi, the Germans have an extensive cultural memory of the effects of comprehensive government surveillance of their lives. They are still surprisingly tolerant of the long term military occupation of their country by the US. It would have been interesting if Snowden had holed up in Germany instead of HK. I wonder if the inevitable US military extradition would have tes…

There's nothing surprising about the German tolerance of the US military bases, considering that they do nothing whatsoever to interfere with our lives or inconvenience us in any way, but do provide quite a lot of jobs. These are mostly medical or training facilities, many of them operated jointly by American and German forces, not some occupying force that's intent on overrunning our government or controlling the ci…

WORLD WAR III: This time, the Germans are the good guys.

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#88

Post by Svip »

mayneack wrote: post #79
ekianjo wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is also worth pointing out that the occupation of Germany ended in 1955. Interestingly, though, Germany never signed a peace treaty with the US. It only signed a "cease-fire" with the US to end the war. :)

Luckily, the US hasn't declared war since Vietnam anyway.

The US hasn't declared war since the Second World War. Neither Vietnam nor Korea was declared as it is described in the US Constitution (that Congress shall declare war).

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#89

Post by arethuza »

digitalengineer wrote: post #83
pekk wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is everyone in this discussion assuming that the US would be attacking Germany if not for the awesome deterrent power of the EU? Seriously?

Sounds crazy but the US has plans to IN-f*cking-VADE Germany's neighbour, the Netherlands if they were ever to do a crazy thing, like arrest US soldiers for war crimes and bring them to the International Tribunal. ..."The Hague Invasion Act,[3][4] since such freeing of US citizens by force might only be possible through an invasion of The Hague, Netherlands, the seat of several international criminal courts and the s…

Countries have all kinds of crazy plans in place in case crazy things happen.

e.g. The UK had plans involving "shooting guards at American nuclear weapon stores in England if they proved uncooperative"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/in-the-eve...

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#90

Post by PavlovsCat »

> "The more a society monitors, controls and observes its citizens, the less free it is," she said.

Okay, it's not Merkel herself who said that. But she sits still while people do, right?

I remember seeing some random youtube video of Merkel giving a speech during an election campaign, talking (nay, bragging) about video surveillance of inner cities (something she basically gives the CDU credit for, which "fought" for that), saying roughly: "some people say that's only useful to catch parking violations, but if you don't deal with parking violations, you don't have to be surprised if it gets worse."

To have Merkel be indignated on my behalf is a DISGUSTING idea. She's opportunistic and spineless, she stands for exactly nothing (other than "Security and Prosperity" of course; just like Kohl she wouldn't recognize what makes life great for decent people even after she squashed it). She, Obama, and all the other people who had their chances, in some cases decades of them, should consider just kindly shutting the fuck up, and sticking to their own, hopefully doomed, bandwagons.

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