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Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

reuters.com

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Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#71

Post by ekianjo »

rz2k wrote: post #40
Cass wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing surprising about the German tolerance of the US military bases, considering that they do nothing whatsoever to interfere with our lives or inconvenience us in any way, but do provide quite a lot of jobs. These are mostly medical or training facilities, many of them operated jointly by American and German forces, not some occupying force that's intent on overrunning our government or controlling the ci…

It is also worth pointing out that the occupation of Germany ended in 1955. The US military has a policy of being forward deployed around the globe, so it negotiates agreements with may countries around the world to station troops in strategic locations. The military bases are there as a result of legal agreements and treaties, not because they would forcibly resist any attempts to expel them, and there is no sentime…

> It is also worth pointing out that the occupation of Germany ended in 1955.

Interestingly, though, Germany never signed a peace treaty with the US. It only signed a "cease-fire" with the US to end the war. :)

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#72

Post by tsotha »

lostlogin wrote: post #60
rz2k wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is also worth pointing out that the occupation of Germany ended in 1955. The US military has a policy of being forward deployed around the globe, so it negotiates agreements with may countries around the world to station troops in strategic locations. The military bases are there as a result of legal agreements and treaties, not because they would forcibly resist any attempts to expel them, and there is no sentime…

Ahh, so it's forward deployment, not some modern version of colonialism. It should be noted that US bases aren't always loved or even well tolerated. See Japan, Iraq, Afghanistan et al.

The US doesn't have any military bases in Iraq.

The Japanese could certainly ask us to leave, and we would. But they don't, because except for a vocal minority they do want us there.

And Afghanistan is a war zone. I wouldn't consider that anything but an occupation. Which, I might add, they brought on themselves, so I don't have much sympathy.

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#73

Post by tsotha »

onli wrote: post #30
Cass wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing surprising about the German tolerance of the US military bases, considering that they do nothing whatsoever to interfere with our lives or inconvenience us in any way, but do provide quite a lot of jobs. These are mostly medical or training facilities, many of them operated jointly by American and German forces, not some occupying force that's intent on overrunning our government or controlling the ci…

Isn't the US already (slowly) withdrawing/reducing the stationed troops? Besides, germany wouldn't really have a chance. The few nuclear rockets we control would probably not be ready in time. The USA could just bomb germany down, like it was planned in case of a war with the UDSSR.

But there wouldn't be any reason for the US to attack Germany. If they want us out we'll leave. Were I president we'd leave whether or not they wanted us to.

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#74

Post by fwenzel »

lostlogin wrote: post #62
fwenzel wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

{{citation-needed}}

Are you joking?

No. I am just seeing a difference between occupation and having troops from foreign allies stationed on one's soil. If all non-local troops are "occupation" in your book, then I guess the US are occupying South Korea also? And Italy? And Israel?

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#75

Post by Dylan16807 »

pekk wrote: post #53
TallGuyShort wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany itself isn't the only reason I doubt the US would attack Germany. If the US attacked Germany, I'm sure most of Europe would side with Germany at this point. So it would be akin to attacking all of Europe. Not something that's worth a single NSA leak, I'm sure.

Why is everyone in this discussion assuming that the US would be attacking Germany if not for the awesome deterrent power of the EU? Seriously?

Motive and deterrence are orthogonal.

Nobody said anything about motive because there is no realistic motive. These 'assumptions' you're seeing are wholly in your own head.

There is, however, real deterrence, and it's interesting to explore its shape.

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#76

Post by brilee »

fwenzel wrote: post #74
lostlogin wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you joking?

No. I am just seeing a difference between occupation and having troops from foreign allies stationed on one's soil. If all non-local troops are "occupation" in your book, then I guess the US are occupying South Korea also? And Italy? And Israel?

http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2008/09/why-do-koreans-compla...

http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2012/12/quick-thought-about-p...

Yes, the US are in fact occupying South Korea, and South Korea does not like it.

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#77

Post by jordanb »

sentenza wrote: post #36
danbruc wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it comes to surveillance the Stasi did a way better job than any NS organisation.

While I principally agree with you, I must add that _the_ data protection related historical event that impressed me most is how the Nazis used the excellent Dutch census data that fell into their hands to round up the Jews of the Netherlands. I don't know how widespread knowledge of this is (I was taught it in school), but I've heard it brought up a few times in discussions about personal data.

One reason why though, is that the Gestapo could rely on ordinary Germans to inform on each other. It didn't need a vast network of agents and microphones, it just needed an office to take complaints and detectives to follow up.

Unlike the Nazis, who were homegrown, the DDR was a locally administered occupation government backed by a foreign power. It was terrified of its own people and it collapsed the moment the threat of Red Army tanks rolling down the streets quit being credible.

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#78

Post by jpatokal »

brilee wrote: post #76
fwenzel wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. I am just seeing a difference between occupation and having troops from foreign allies stationed on one's soil. If all non-local troops are "occupation" in your book, then I guess the US are occupying South Korea also? And Italy? And Israel?

http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2008/09/why-do-koreans-compla... http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2012/12/quick-thought-about-p... Yes, the US are in fact occupying South Korea, and South Korea does not like it.

No, the US Army is "occupying" a chunk of prime real estate in Seoul, in kind of the same way that the United Nations HQ "occupies" a chunk of prime real estate in NYC. Both cause complaints from the locals, but unlike a real occupation, South Korea could tell the US (and the US could tell the UN) to GTFO any time they wanted to.

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#79

Post by mayneack »

ekianjo wrote: post #71
rz2k wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is also worth pointing out that the occupation of Germany ended in 1955. The US military has a policy of being forward deployed around the globe, so it negotiates agreements with may countries around the world to station troops in strategic locations. The military bases are there as a result of legal agreements and treaties, not because they would forcibly resist any attempts to expel them, and there is no sentime…

> It is also worth pointing out that the occupation of Germany ended in 1955. Interestingly, though, Germany never signed a peace treaty with the US. It only signed a "cease-fire" with the US to end the war. :)

Luckily, the US hasn't declared war since Vietnam anyway.

Re: Germans accuse U.S. of Stasi tactics before Obama visit

#80

Post by 1123581321 »

hga wrote: post #5
woah wrote: post #2

Not surprising. With the Gestapo, and then the Stasi, the Germans have an extensive cultural memory of the effects of comprehensive government surveillance of their lives. They are still surprisingly tolerant of the long term military occupation of their country by the US. It would have been interesting if Snowden had holed up in Germany instead of HK. I wonder if the inevitable US military extradition would have tes…

According to Wikipedia, as of 2010 the US military has 52,440 people in Germany, and as of 2013 the German military had 188,921 active personnel and as of 2010 144,000 in their reserves. That falls a bit short of "occupation" in my book. There has in fact been at least one technothriller based on the US military fighting its way out of Germany, based of course on the Anabasis ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabasis_(…

What is that book?
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