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NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

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Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#281

Post by flyinRyan »

twoodfin wrote: post #276
flyinRyan wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is different and you know it. The Normandy invasion is one specific operation of one specific group. Cops doing a raid would be a similar thing. In both cases, their activities are isolated to that one specific area and they only need be secret for a relatively short period of time. Contrast this with things like NSA: no end date, literally global scope, etc. Surely you can see how these things are different.

So intelligence services in general are out?

Yes probably. Anything that can't be held accountable publicly is just begging for abuse. Governments draw dangerous people to want to work for them so they will be creating illegal secret structures in any case. We shouldn't be making it even easier for them.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#282

Post by JanezStupar »

irishloop wrote: post #270
baddox wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're doubly wrong. Security is not a precondition of freedom, and security does not have to come at a loss of freedom.

Not at all. The moment someone points a gun at you and tells you what to do, your freedom has been usurped. Without the security to make your own choices, you do not have freedom. Thus, it's important to restrict certain actions (i.e., your ability to point a gun at someone and make demands) in order to protect the freedom of others.

The moment someone points a gun at you, your freedoms are completely intact.

Moreover, this is the moment when you can show whether you are really free.

Free men do not mind dying when their time comes.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#283

Post by diek »

hawleyal wrote: post #122
jmduke wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's a problem to know where all the subs are and what they are doing in my name, then I have a problem. I'm glad you aren't in the Department of Defense, then. The military serves at everyone's behest, not of their own accord. This is a false dichotomy.

You enjoy secret wars in your name, cool. That's not what I would call a functional society. It's not a dichotomy, let alone a false one. Please explain your objection.

One of many examples: Project Azorian

During the Cold War the Soviets lost a nuclear submarine in international waters. The Soviets couldn't find it, the US (through its network of acoustic listening stations in the oceans) could. There was a multi-year effort to recover the sub, which required an elaborate cover story and operational security.

If the Soviets knew what the recovery ship was doing, they would have blown it out of the water. All the secrecy was necessary to protect the mission.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#284

Post by loceng »

aheilbut wrote: post #183
guelo wrote: post #104

We don't need an NSA or CIA or any other spy agency. I know I'm an extremist on government secrets, but I think there should be none. Nothing should be outside the reach of a FOIA request. In my ideal world all government officials' documents and emails would be made publicly accesible in real time, they're working for us. Any exception or loophole to transparency gets abused, every time. If that makes it harder to c…

If you stop playing the game Civilization and look back at history, you'll see that there are a lot of very bad people in the world who do very bad things. All of the freedoms that we enjoy in Western democracies were hard-won and continue to be backed up by guns, bombs, codes, and secrets. It's not pretty, but that's how things are. It might well be that the current approach to domestic surveillance is out of balanc…

I tend to lean towards your view point, mostly because the alternate unknown is terrifying. What does need to happen is the people who are given control of systems need to be accountable, not lie, and intent of their actions needs to be known. There are many more less costly things that can be done to help a society stay safe - from itself and from others around the world.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#286

Post by 542458 »

JanezStupar wrote: post #282
irishloop wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. The moment someone points a gun at you and tells you what to do, your freedom has been usurped. Without the security to make your own choices, you do not have freedom. Thus, it's important to restrict certain actions (i.e., your ability to point a gun at someone and make demands) in order to protect the freedom of others.

The moment someone points a gun at you, your freedoms are completely intact. Moreover, this is the moment when you can show whether you are really free. Free men do not mind dying when their time comes.

You're being pedantic. "Freedom" in this case quite clearly refers to "Liberty" or "Autonomy" rather than to "Free Will".

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#287

Post by potatolicious »

JanezStupar wrote: post #282
irishloop wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. The moment someone points a gun at you and tells you what to do, your freedom has been usurped. Without the security to make your own choices, you do not have freedom. Thus, it's important to restrict certain actions (i.e., your ability to point a gun at someone and make demands) in order to protect the freedom of others.

The moment someone points a gun at you, your freedoms are completely intact. Moreover, this is the moment when you can show whether you are really free. Free men do not mind dying when their time comes.

That sounds nice. Let's hear you deliver that soliloquy when you're held by a mugger at gunpoint, about how you are your own master.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#288

Post by potatolicious »

flyinRyan wrote: post #236
aheilbut wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That strategy demonstrably worked -- we got through the Cold War. The problem is you can't always assume that the other guy has good intentions. If they're rational, then mutually assured destruction keeps everyone rational. If they're crazy, then that certainly is a problem, which is why there is enormous effort put into preventing proliferation and containing the capabilities of countries like North Korea and Iran.

You think mutually assured destruction is going to keep an Islamic extremist group rational?

Islamic extremists are not the only security threat to the USA. We continue to exist in a relativel tense peace with China, Russia, and other nation-states.

The ability to drop a bunch of nukes on someone on short notice is not to deter terrorists, it's to deter nation states - anywhere between North Korea through Pakistan.

The existence of nukes and the submarines that carry them is almost entirely orthogonal to the (relatively new) thread of terrorism.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#289

Post by jaredmcateer »

reidmain wrote: post #155
grecy wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My girlfriend works for a branch of the Canadian government. All of her emails, meeting minutes, agendas, etc. are all on the public record. Anyone can search/read/whatever them at any time.

As a Canadian I'm curious where I can search this information.

Searching isn't that easy for things other than public meetings, but you can making an access request through just about every level of government's website.

E.g., Here's the FOIP request page for the City of Calgary http://www.calgary.ca/CA/city-clerks/Pages/Freedom-of-Inform...

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#290

Post by loup-vaillant »

JanezStupar wrote: post #282
irishloop wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. The moment someone points a gun at you and tells you what to do, your freedom has been usurped. Without the security to make your own choices, you do not have freedom. Thus, it's important to restrict certain actions (i.e., your ability to point a gun at someone and make demands) in order to protect the freedom of others.

The moment someone points a gun at you, your freedoms are completely intact. Moreover, this is the moment when you can show whether you are really free. Free men do not mind dying when their time comes.

What the heck do you mean by "freedom"?

When I say "freedom", I talk about choice. Options. Influence over one's light cone. All of which are drastically diminished whenever you're locked in a cell, or threatened by a madman with a gun.

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