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NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

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Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#271

Post by aetimmes »

davidw wrote: post #261
ekianjo wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since where Security is a precondition to Freedom ? I wonder where you conceived that strange idea. We never had as much security as we have now (compared to the hundreds of generations before us) yet we are losing our liberties at an alarming speed.

> Since where Security is a precondition to Freedom ? If you have zero physical security, that means that anyone can come up and just knock you down and take your things, your woman, whatever... Not my idea of "freedom". I think that it follows that you do need some security in order to live a free life. Does that justify secret government spying programs? Probably not! People here seem to have awfully black and whit…

>If you have zero physical security, that means that anyone can come up and just knock you down and take your things, your woman, whatever... Not my idea of "freedom".

What you're describing is total freedom in a causal society - the only constraint on what people do is what they _can_ do. It may not be your definition of freedom, but from an unbiased observer, it is arguably the most free a society can be.

You (and a lot of other people, I think) are conflating freedom (being able to do whatever you can) with rights (a guarantee that certain conditions will exist in a governed society). Granting rights necessarily diminishes the total freedom of a society.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#272

Post by CamperBob2 »

flyinRyan wrote: post #235
sneak wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest follow-up question: How much danger would it need to put us in for you to think it's a bad idea? What if what they're not telling us is that FISA collection orders and analysis has kept people from nuking Manhattan a half-dozen times?

>How much danger would it need to put us in for you to think it's a bad idea? There is no number high enough to make me think getting rid of government secrecy is a bad idea. The reason is that there are other methods to deal with these kinds of problems. If other countries want to nuke us, it's probably a better idea to find out why they want to nuke us then to become a police state. >What if what they're not tellin…

If other countries want to nuke us, it's probably a better idea to find out why they want to nuke us

What will your next step be, when you learn that the answer to your question is "Religion"?

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#273

Post by mpyne »

baddox wrote: post #181
rayiner wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China and Russia.

Two countries that have never used nuclear weapons against their enemies.

On the other hand, they've both killed tens of millions of their own citizens. Each.

And the U.S. killed more people using conventional ordnance in a single night in Tokyo than died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined from the atomic bombings, so what is it that you're actually upset about? Because it's obviously not the number of Japanese killed.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#274

Post by d23 »

Steko wrote: post #151
d23 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know in what twisted stretch of the imagination someone can consider Snowden a traitor, unless he is blatantly lying. He didn't reveal anything that would be bad enough to actually harm anyone's life. And if he's telling us the truth, he did nothing less than a public service service, putting his own life at risk.

"I don't know in what twisted stretch of the imagination someone can consider Snowden a traitor, unless he is blatantly lying." So you couldn't imagine X would be true about Y unless Y did something that many people do all the time?

Oh sure, people make up national secrets that will put their life at risk all the time.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#275

Post by Fargren »

ekianjo wrote: post #250
aheilbut wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that security is a precondition to enjoying all of the freedoms you list. There are trade-offs to make between freedom and security, and neither the freedoms nor the security are absolute, and they never have been.

Since where Security is a precondition to Freedom ? I wonder where you conceived that strange idea. We never had as much security as we have now (compared to the hundreds of generations before us) yet we are losing our liberties at an alarming speed.

Hobbes made a case for that in Leviathan. It's certainly not a new idea.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#276

Post by twoodfin »

flyinRyan wrote: post #262
twoodfin wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bizarre claim when phrased as an absolute: Eisenhower should have published the Normandy invasion plans?

This is different and you know it. The Normandy invasion is one specific operation of one specific group. Cops doing a raid would be a similar thing. In both cases, their activities are isolated to that one specific area and they only need be secret for a relatively short period of time. Contrast this with things like NSA: no end date, literally global scope, etc. Surely you can see how these things are different.

So intelligence services in general are out?

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#277

Post by quizotic »

1. A few weeks ago, President Obama said he would discuss the issue of cyber-espionage during his meeting with the Chinese leader, Xi Jinping.

2. At about the time of their meeting, two separate stories of massive US Govt surveillance of its own citizens hits the press.

3. The individual who leaked the PRISM story is now allegedly in Hong Kong, his whereabouts unknown.

Encrypt that.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#278

Post by 6cxs2hd6 »

davidw wrote: post #261
ekianjo wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since where Security is a precondition to Freedom ? I wonder where you conceived that strange idea. We never had as much security as we have now (compared to the hundreds of generations before us) yet we are losing our liberties at an alarming speed.

> Since where Security is a precondition to Freedom ? If you have zero physical security, that means that anyone can come up and just knock you down and take your things, your woman, whatever... Not my idea of "freedom". I think that it follows that you do need some security in order to live a free life. Does that justify secret government spying programs? Probably not! People here seem to have awfully black and whit…

> If you have zero physical security, that means that anyone can come up and just knock you down and take your things, your woman, whatever

Hodor. Own woman. Hodor. Hodor. Hodor.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#279

Post by stevepotter »

godgod wrote: post #21
suyash wrote: post #9

In my opinion, he is a Traitor just like Bradley Manning for jeopardizing National Security.

National security...give me a break. "Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither." - Benjamin Franklin Make no mistake, we live in very dangerous world but it's now clear that the danger is being generated or at least perpetuated by the US government. The war on terror is a lie. We're openly funding terror. The police state is here. The industrial military complex war machine will never stop. The Patrio…

The actual Franklin quote is "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Your version is paraphrased. The "essential" and "a little temporary" I believe are part of this debate. I'm deeply opposed to this blanket surveillance by the way.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#280

Post by flyinRyan »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #272
flyinRyan wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How much danger would it need to put us in for you to think it's a bad idea? There is no number high enough to make me think getting rid of government secrecy is a bad idea. The reason is that there are other methods to deal with these kinds of problems. If other countries want to nuke us, it's probably a better idea to find out why they want to nuke us then to become a police state. >What if what they're not tellin…

If other countries want to nuke us, it's probably a better idea to find out why they want to nuke us What will your next step be, when you learn that the answer to your question is "Religion"?

I'm confident that that will not be the answer. That and "hate us for our freedoms" are popular for war mongers because there is apparently no solution besides continuing to bomb them. But is it possible they have legitimate grievancences? Is it possible that they're human beings who are pissed off about something we're doing or have done?

The saddest part is, we appear to have learned literally nothing since our handling of native Americans. It's disgusting.

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