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NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

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Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#231

Post by jussij »

jfisher wrote: post #112
guelo wrote: post #104

We don't need an NSA or CIA or any other spy agency. I know I'm an extremist on government secrets, but I think there should be none. Nothing should be outside the reach of a FOIA request. In my ideal world all government officials' documents and emails would be made publicly accesible in real time, they're working for us. Any exception or loophole to transparency gets abused, every time. If that makes it harder to c…

Dear U.S. Navy, Where are your nuclear subs and what are their missions? Sincerely, Definitely a U.S. citizen

They already know where the subs are:

Submarine Spotting

Now a report in the magazine New Scientist says the probable reason for the action is that the scientists are all study bioluminescent plankton which can reveal the whereabouts of submarines.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/sci/tech/525113.stm

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#232

Post by flyinRyan »

JamisonM wrote: post #124
guelo wrote: post #104

We don't need an NSA or CIA or any other spy agency. I know I'm an extremist on government secrets, but I think there should be none. Nothing should be outside the reach of a FOIA request. In my ideal world all government officials' documents and emails would be made publicly accesible in real time, they're working for us. Any exception or loophole to transparency gets abused, every time. If that makes it harder to c…

There are an absurd number of things that it makes sense for the government to keep from the public and not divesting that information but keeping the people who have that information accountable is what elections are for. You want to know what officers are working under cover in the police force? Who are informants on terrorist organizations working against the state? The home phone numbers and addresses of all publ…

Everyone always goes back to this stupid under cover cop example. It would be possible to allow under cover sting operations (of course, once you legalize drugs the need for most of those goes away) while not allowing the government to spy on the whole internet. Come on.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#233

Post by flyinRyan »

sneak wrote: post #191
baddox wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You want to know what officers are working under cover in the police force? I don't think that there need to be undercover police officers. > Who are informants on terrorist organizations working against the state? I don't think there need to be informants on terrorist organizations. > The home phone numbers and addresses of all public employees? Their emergency contact numbers? Medical histories relevant to their…

I generally agree with you, but to be Devil's Advocate for a moment, what do you think about secret R&D for purposes of defense? Even some of the most staunch anarcho-capitalists I know believe in centralized national defense as one of the very few legitimate functions of the state. Would not having planes invisible to radar (B-2), or those that could fly faster than missiles (SR-71) be nice secrets to keep from ever…

>what do you think about secret R&D for purposes of defense?

I'm strongly against it. A lot of our breakthroughs are too expensive for dangerous countries to copy in any case.

> be nice secrets to keep from everyone who's thinking about invading you?

When is the last time the US was invaded by anyone? When is the last time any country even tried to invade the US? If all your justifications are about nightmare scenarios that haven't occurred in centuries they're probably not very good justifications.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#234

Post by flyinRyan »

md224 wrote: post #159
JamisonM wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are an absurd number of things that it makes sense for the government to keep from the public and not divesting that information but keeping the people who have that information accountable is what elections are for. You want to know what officers are working under cover in the police force? Who are informants on terrorist organizations working against the state? The home phone numbers and addresses of all publ…

How about a middle ground where information private to the government is allowed but there is no NSA or CIA, or at least no intelligence operations beyond keeping an eye on the military movements of other countries? Honest question: What danger would that put us in? My instinct says a moderate amount, but I guess none of us know for sure, which makes it a little scary to imagine.

There is no middle ground. As soon as you give the government the right to secrets (and even if you don't!) they're going to use it to build things like NSA and hide them from you.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#235

Post by flyinRyan »

sneak wrote: post #189
md224 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about a middle ground where information private to the government is allowed but there is no NSA or CIA, or at least no intelligence operations beyond keeping an eye on the military movements of other countries? Honest question: What danger would that put us in? My instinct says a moderate amount, but I guess none of us know for sure, which makes it a little scary to imagine.

Honest follow-up question: How much danger would it need to put us in for you to think it's a bad idea? What if what they're not telling us is that FISA collection orders and analysis has kept people from nuking Manhattan a half-dozen times?

>How much danger would it need to put us in for you to think it's a bad idea?

There is no number high enough to make me think getting rid of government secrecy is a bad idea. The reason is that there are other methods to deal with these kinds of problems. If other countries want to nuke us, it's probably a better idea to find out why they want to nuke us then to become a police state.

>What if what they're not telling us is that FISA collection orders and analysis has kept people from nuking Manhattan a half-dozen times?

What if they've also kept the big fight between Godzilla and King Kong from us? This is nonsense, they have not stopped anything like that. Pretty much everything terrorists have actually tried to do, they've succeed (or were foiled by their own incompetence). The cases where the government actually managed to "stop" a terror attack were very clear cases of entrapment. If they're actually out there like Jason Bourne saving the US in the last second all the time, why would they chose to show us clear cases of entrapment as their success stories?

But if you really believe they're keeping us safe, then I'd like to give you a great offer on my anti-Godzilla rock. Godzilla has not so much as inconvenienced me on the way to work since I have this rock. I'm willing to make you a great deal on it, $1B. That's less than you're paying for the other charade.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#236

Post by flyinRyan »

aheilbut wrote: post #177
ekianjo wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument is flawed. You can destroy each other, so what? Everybody loses. We know that some countries have their weapons ready to go at the will of a single person or very few. What if that leader becomes crazy or incapable of reasoning? Your subs you't protect you in that scenario. There are so many other ways you can prevent such attacks. Diplomacy, commerce, keeping good relations, etc. The threat of an axe o…

That strategy demonstrably worked -- we got through the Cold War. The problem is you can't always assume that the other guy has good intentions. If they're rational, then mutually assured destruction keeps everyone rational. If they're crazy, then that certainly is a problem, which is why there is enormous effort put into preventing proliferation and containing the capabilities of countries like North Korea and Iran.

You think mutually assured destruction is going to keep an Islamic extremist group rational?

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#237

Post by baddox »

aheilbut wrote: post #225
TelmoMenezes wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What freedoms are being protected exactly? The freedom from government intrusion in your private life? The freedom to travel? The freedom to bear arms and defend yourself? The freedom to grow whichever plant you wish in your own land? The freedom to do with your own body as you please, provided you do not harm anyone else? The freedom from excessive labour? The freedom to run a currency like Bitcoin? The freedom from…

The point is that security is a precondition to enjoying all of the freedoms you list. There are trade-offs to make between freedom and security, and neither the freedoms nor the security are absolute, and they never have been.

You're doubly wrong. Security is not a precondition of freedom, and security does not have to come at a loss of freedom.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#238

Post by baddox »

aheilbut wrote: post #205
fexl wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"All of the freedoms that we enjoy in Western democracies were hard-won and continue to be backed up by guns, bombs, codes, and secrets. It's not pretty, but that's how things are." That's the official story. In reality, those things are used to enslave people and keep them happy on the modern plantation, looking to the master to keep them safe. Freedom is the absence of coercion, and those things have utterly failed…

No, really, that's not just the official story. The reality is that tens of millions of people were killed in wars and genocides in just the 20th century. The most basic role of government is to protect its own citizens against that , and it is not an abstract threat. And despite their many flaws, and the many wrong things that they have done, the US and its allies remain the most open, free societies and a positive,…

> The most basic role of government is to protect its own citizens against that

Or perhaps it's to bring wars and genocide to people in other countries.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#239

Post by baddox »

icebraining wrote: post #216
einhverfr wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many of those genocides were carried on by a government against some segment of its population? How justified is it to look at the tens of millions who have been killed by their governments and conclude that if the governments are to protect us from war and genocide, "with friends like these, who needs enemies?"

Well, actually all genocides were carried on by people (part of a government or not), so maybe we should eliminate people. Either that or not make broad generalizations.

Most people cannot fund a military via taxation. That's unique to government.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#240

Post by flyinRyan »

pappyo wrote: post #137
guelo wrote: post #104

We don't need an NSA or CIA or any other spy agency. I know I'm an extremist on government secrets, but I think there should be none. Nothing should be outside the reach of a FOIA request. In my ideal world all government officials' documents and emails would be made publicly accesible in real time, they're working for us. Any exception or loophole to transparency gets abused, every time. If that makes it harder to c…

Unfortunately we don't live in a world of ideals. With complete transparency comes little ability for security. Terrorist attempts become more frequent. Crime becomes more rampant and life become more unstable. If you ask a typical American if they are willing to die for their freedom, very few would. They'd rather the security. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, it's just true.

>Terrorist attempts become more frequent.

Citation needed. We have no reason to believe that any actual terror attacks have been stopped. People who wanted to use terror against the US have either managed to or failed by their own incompetence. What we do know is that before we started getting insane about security there would be some attack about once every 10 years. Why do you imagine it's any higher frequency now?

And the part that irritates me the most is: if there is more frequency to the attacks, why aren't we trying to find out why and addressing that. If you think the answer is "they hate us for our freedoms" then you're simply an idiot.

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