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NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

blog.sfgate.com

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Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#161

Post by drewcrawford »

JamisonM wrote: post #124
guelo wrote: post #104

We don't need an NSA or CIA or any other spy agency. I know I'm an extremist on government secrets, but I think there should be none. Nothing should be outside the reach of a FOIA request. In my ideal world all government officials' documents and emails would be made publicly accesible in real time, they're working for us. Any exception or loophole to transparency gets abused, every time. If that makes it harder to c…

There are an absurd number of things that it makes sense for the government to keep from the public and not divesting that information but keeping the people who have that information accountable is what elections are for. You want to know what officers are working under cover in the police force? Who are informants on terrorist organizations working against the state? The home phone numbers and addresses of all publ…

This is surprisingly easy to fix.

What you have to do is

1. Any agency can designate a document as classified, a designation which remains in play for four years. This dovetails nicely with the election cycle. Also, the majority of police, etc. undercover operations are shorter than this period. Above this you are in "major case" / RICO / terrorism / etc. territory.

2. Extending the classification beyond four years requires a motion to show cause before a bona fide judiciary, where the agency must show by clear and convincing evidence that the classification falls into an enumerated exemption criteria. The classification can be extended indefinitely, but only in increments of 12 months and only upon the approval of the judicial branch.

A proposal like this addresses most people's objections. The real problem with the current classification scheme is A) like Mickey Mouse's copyright, it expires on paper but not in real life, and B) the agencies are all essentially self-policing and nobody really checks in on them to see if the classification decisions are correct.

The thing about this proposal is that it requires all three branches to sign off and say "yes, this should stay classified" and it also limits the number of secrets you can have, because there are only so many lawyers and so many judges, and now you have to decide if you want to allocate time in the budget to make motions for the next 50 years. There are legitimate secrets that are worth that kind of hassle, and then there are the other 90% of stuff that the alphabet soup of agencies does.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#163

Post by riggins »

neltnerb wrote: post #101

I find this kind of thing particularly interesting because I am the same age as Snowden. For reference, 9/11 is one of the defining events of my adult life. It happened during freshman physics lecture on my second week of classes at MIT. I considered joining the military, I protested in the streets against the war in Iraq. I remember the Patriot act being passed very well, and remember wishing people could see how sh…

I feel like people who are much younger than me don't have any frame of reference for a time when surveillance wasn't the assumed state of affairs.

It's mind blowing to realize there are people who are too young to have experienced how different the pre-9/11 world was.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#166

Post by ekianjo »

michaelwww wrote: post #131
jleader wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why exactly do we still need nuclear subs? I'm not trying to be a troll, or funny. What threat is currently best dealt with by deploying ICBMs in nuclear subs? And why is the money better spent on that than on any other alternative use?

I rode subs for awhile and your question is a fair question. Subs with nuke missiles are an insurance policy. They are a deterrent, insuring no country can attack the U.S. - no matter how successful - and not expect a massive and devastating counter-attack. Run silent, run deep.

That argument is flawed. You can destroy each other, so what? Everybody loses. We know that some countries have their weapons ready to go at the will of a single person or very few. What if that leader becomes crazy or incapable of reasoning? Your subs you't protect you in that scenario.

There are so many other ways you can prevent such attacks. Diplomacy, commerce, keeping good relations, etc. The threat of an axe on your neck makes it hard to look like you have good intentions in the first place.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#167

Post by nrivadeneira »

d23 wrote: post #103
freerobby wrote: post #8

"Is Snowden a hero or a traitor? Stay tuned if you can only hold one simplistic juvenile idea in your head at a time." https://twitter.com/pourmecoffee/status/344202042019045377

I don't know in what twisted stretch of the imagination someone can consider Snowden a traitor, unless he is blatantly lying. He didn't reveal anything that would be bad enough to actually harm anyone's life. And if he's telling us the truth, he did nothing less than a public service service, putting his own life at risk.

If he was a true patriot, he'd have stood his ground and gone to trial. It doesn't seem very American to me to flee the country to avoid the repercussions of breaking the law. Mind you, I support him releasing this information.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#168

Post by ekianjo »

rayiner wrote: post #130
bicknergseng wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious why we need both a nuclear deterrent and a standing army of 1,127,801 people. Seems like more of an XOR.

Because we subsidize world peace ( http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-01-22/india... ). Maybe it's a business we need to get out of, but at the moment, the reason Europe, etc, get away with spending so little on defense is that they can count on NATO, and the U.S. basically carries NATO.

NATO's record to keep the world safe and peaceful is nothing short of a disaster. Arriving too late with too little is often how NATO's interventions can be described. Laughable at best, and in return people end up hating NATO for their lack of timely action to save lives.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#169

Post by Zarathust »

JamisonM wrote: post #124
guelo wrote: post #104

We don't need an NSA or CIA or any other spy agency. I know I'm an extremist on government secrets, but I think there should be none. Nothing should be outside the reach of a FOIA request. In my ideal world all government officials' documents and emails would be made publicly accesible in real time, they're working for us. Any exception or loophole to transparency gets abused, every time. If that makes it harder to c…

There are an absurd number of things that it makes sense for the government to keep from the public and not divesting that information but keeping the people who have that information accountable is what elections are for. You want to know what officers are working under cover in the police force? Who are informants on terrorist organizations working against the state? The home phone numbers and addresses of all publ…

Clearly, this doesn't work so well. Obama was first elected around this "change" and to be frank, not much has changed. At the risk of being overly pessimistic, I fail to see how the next president will be any different. He/She will be trapped in the same continuity of secrets and money. Maybe the democrats will be ousted from power, but so were the republicans

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#170

Post by ekianjo »

guelo wrote: post #104

We don't need an NSA or CIA or any other spy agency. I know I'm an extremist on government secrets, but I think there should be none. Nothing should be outside the reach of a FOIA request. In my ideal world all government officials' documents and emails would be made publicly accesible in real time, they're working for us. Any exception or loophole to transparency gets abused, every time. If that makes it harder to c…

There are probably things that still need to remain secret, just like corporations need secret to protect their business. However, to insure a minimum level of transparency, the government should clearly SAY what kind of things are going to be secret, so that the scope is clearly defined (for example: locations of nuclear weapons will be treated as classified for obvious reasons), as well as the constitutional limits of whatever secret operation can be carried. Likewise, there should be budget restrictions on secret operations to ensure nothing huge can go out of the radar without public scrutiny.
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