Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

people-press.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 96 posts

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#81

Post by baddox »

tptacek wrote: post #66
baddox wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's pitchfork-worthy when this evidence is used to justify the killing of innocent people on the other side of the world even if it's done in the name of "national security."

If you believe the entire enterprise of violently suppressing foreign terrorist groups is counterfeit or immoral, you of course aren't going to be convinced by any reasoning mustered by the USG or its supporters. But what about counterproliferation? The USG has the world's largest and most capable nuclear arsenal. In terrorist cases, reasonable people can disagree about how the USG's interests line up; maybe those ca…

There's really two issues here. Firstly, I meant "killing innocent people" to refer to people who are innocent of anything that anyone routinely refers to as "terrorism," like children. Secondly, I have purposefully tried to leave out my own personal views on what constitutes "terrorism" and what constitutes a good response to it, because like you predicted, I'm probably not going to be convinced. But the first point still stands.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#82

Post by tptacek »

baddox wrote: post #81
tptacek wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you believe the entire enterprise of violently suppressing foreign terrorist groups is counterfeit or immoral, you of course aren't going to be convinced by any reasoning mustered by the USG or its supporters. But what about counterproliferation? The USG has the world's largest and most capable nuclear arsenal. In terrorist cases, reasonable people can disagree about how the USG's interests line up; maybe those ca…

There's really two issues here. Firstly, I meant "killing innocent people" to refer to people who are innocent of anything that anyone routinely refers to as "terrorism," like children. Secondly, I have purposefully tried to leave out my own personal views on what constitutes "terrorism" and what constitutes a good response to it, because like you predicted, I'm probably not going to be convinced. But the first point…

I'm deliberately not challenging any perspective you might have on the "global war on terror" and instead trying to sidestep it for the sake of discussion with an isomorphic but distinct alternative issue.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#83

Post by baddox »

tptacek wrote: post #68
baddox wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. I think the incentives of all branches of government are very similar, and I do think this is a flaw in the design of the United States government. However, I don't think the founding fathers could have done any better, because I believe this is an inherent flaw with any government.

The people don't vote for federal judges, who have lifetime tenure. Federal judges are thus insulated both from popular opinion and, to some extent, from politics. That's all I meant.

I find it hard to believe that you actually believe federal judges to be in any way insulated from politics. Being subject to elections is in no way the only incentive affecting those in political power. People like to be well-known and well-loved, they like to be on the news, they like to have other people in power "on their side," etc.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#84

Post by baddox »

tptacek wrote: post #64
baddox wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no data to back this up, but I suspect you are wrong. I believe that the majority of American adults (let's say age 18 and above) are guilty of many crimes and that the NSA is very capable of obtaining evidence to convict them. Some of these crimes people are well aware of, like drug use, speeding, or the obvious copyright infringement, but some aren't, like tax crime or breaking safety regulations. As the quo…

For starters: the NSA can't convict anyone; it doesn't have that power. Next: no matter who obtains information under FISA and how it's obtained, it can't be used as evidence in court unless the proceeding pertains to the objective of the FISA warrant, which itself must pertain to agents of foreign powers. If evidence of, say, drug trafficking is collected against you deliberately via FISA, you can move to suppress t…

> For starters: the NSA can't convict anyone; it doesn't have that power.

That's true (right now anyway), but I don't buy the idea that government agencies (or even branches) are distinct enough that we shouldn't be worried. Similarly, I wouldn't approve of the Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service employing a network of domestic assassins, and the fact that they are currently not legally permitted to carry out assassinations would be of no consolation.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#85

Post by tptacek »

brymaster wrote: post #80
tptacek wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think people looking to do harm don't use phones? Why do you assume the use of burners makes telephonic surveillance pointless? Are you attributing to adversaries the best possible set of circumstances and smallest possible set of constraints?

I think the argument I wanted to make was that the people NSA claim to be after aren't using your typical contractual phone plans, since OP was suggesting they should simply track call logs. Sure they used pre-paid phones as well as pay phones, hotmail and were still using coded and hidden messages. Today they'd be using that steganography over cryptography. Few sources: http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-205_162-4985597.ht…

The fact that these people might use disposable phones is actually one of the reasons USG supporters give in favor of hoovering all the telephony "metadata".

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#86

Post by tptacek »

baddox wrote: post #84
tptacek wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For starters: the NSA can't convict anyone; it doesn't have that power. Next: no matter who obtains information under FISA and how it's obtained, it can't be used as evidence in court unless the proceeding pertains to the objective of the FISA warrant, which itself must pertain to agents of foreign powers. If evidence of, say, drug trafficking is collected against you deliberately via FISA, you can move to suppress t…

> For starters: the NSA can't convict anyone; it doesn't have that power. That's true (right now anyway), but I don't buy the idea that government agencies (or even branches) are distinct enough that we shouldn't be worried. Similarly, I wouldn't approve of the Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service employing a network of domestic assassins, and the fact that they are currently not legally permitted to carry out…

If you think the NSA is going to sprout (say) a drug enforcement arm, why are you so worried about telephony metadata? Clearly, there's no law constraining NSA at all; were I you, I'd be more concerned about them disappearing me for making public arguments against them.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#87

Post by tptacek »

baddox wrote: post #83
tptacek wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people don't vote for federal judges, who have lifetime tenure. Federal judges are thus insulated both from popular opinion and, to some extent, from politics. That's all I meant.

I find it hard to believe that you actually believe federal judges to be in any way insulated from politics. Being subject to elections is in no way the only incentive affecting those in political power. People like to be well-known and well-loved, they like to be on the news, they like to have other people in power "on their side," etc.

I chose the words in my comment somewhat carefully. I don't know how much clearer I can make the comment I wrote upthread for you.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#88

Post by Alex3917 »

tptacek wrote: post #43
Alex3917 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's not just that most Americans don't believe they have anything to hide from NSA. It's that they don't have anything to hide from NSA." I'm not so sure about that. Roughly 90% of Americans use illegal drugs at some point in their lives[1], and supposedly the average American commits 3 felonies per day.[2] [1] http://www.monitoringthefuture.org/pubs/monographs/vol2_2009... [2] http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-…

Most Americans do not believe NSA gives a shit whether they've smoked up before. I don't believe that either.

Saying the NSA doesn't care if you've smoked weed is like saying the telephone doesn't care if you've smoked weed. It's technically true, but you can still get arrested for things you say over the phone. Same with the NSA, where they don't actually enforce the laws themselves, they're just a data provider for everyone else. And even if no one cares now, when the data is stored indefinitely, things you're doing/saying now that are completely innocuous could be used against you years or even decades in the future. Ex post facto won't stop the government from banning you from getting on a plane, getting a passport, taking out a bank loan, etc.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#89

Post by tptacek »

Alex3917 wrote: post #88
tptacek wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most Americans do not believe NSA gives a shit whether they've smoked up before. I don't believe that either.

Saying the NSA doesn't care if you've smoked weed is like saying the telephone doesn't care if you've smoked weed. It's technically true, but you can still get arrested for things you say over the phone. Same with the NSA, where they don't actually enforce the laws themselves, they're just a data provider for everyone else. And even if no one cares now, when the data is stored indefinitely, things you're doing/saying…

I think if you look at all the comments I've made on this thread (I'm not asking you to, just saying), you'll see that I agree that there is data any American might want to hide in their telephone calls or emails. The issue is that NSA doesn't want that data, and that FISA was designed to prevent data from being used the way you say it could be.

Long-term storage of data is certainly a valid issue. Of course, under FISA, NSA is obliged to "destroy" all data they accidentally collect that can't be traced to a specific foreign intelligence purpose.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#90

Post by dragonwriter »

tptacek wrote: post #73
dragonwriter wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

#1 is true whether or not #2 is true, because there is no adversarial process in the FISA courts. A one-sided legal process is never a meaningful check. With regular courts, even when the initial process is similarly one-sided (as it is with search and arrest warrants), the fact that the outcome will be subject to adversarial process down the road is something of a constraint (but, even then, I don't think anyone is…

How could there ever be an adversarial process for foreign intelligence surveillance? Can you explain how that could ever work?

> How could there ever be an adversarial process for foreign intelligence surveillance?

I didn't say their could be.

Pointing out that the status quo structure doesn't provide a meaningful check doesn't mean that there is an easy framework that does provide a meaningful check while enabling the same scope of powers in "the right" kind of cases.

Post reply on HN