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Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

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Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#61

Post by baddox »

tptacek wrote: post #25
mindcrime wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory, that's why we have the notion of "probable cause" and warrants, etc. But what we have instead, is a "rubber stamp" mechanism from a secret court which - essentially - is completely free from an accountability to the American people. Given that, I don't really care so much what the NSA tries to do... I now realize that the real answer is promotion, advocacy and education around technological tools to evade…

All federal courts are (basically) free from public accountability. That is literally one of the objectives of the design of the Judicial Branch; complain to the founding fathers.

I disagree. I think the incentives of all branches of government are very similar, and I do think this is a flaw in the design of the United States government. However, I don't think the founding fathers could have done any better, because I believe this is an inherent flaw with any government.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#62

Post by baddox »

craigyk wrote: post #17
tptacek wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the sense that this doesn't surprise you. My question is: why would it surprise anyone? It's not just that most Americans don't believe they have anything to hide from NSA. It's that they don't have anything to hide from NSA. I'm not invoking the fallacious "nothing to hide" argument; I have stuff I need to keep hidden. But most people really don't , and especially not from NSA.

Yeah. You'll get me too pull out my pitchfork if there is ever evidence this is being used for anything other than national security, I haven't seen that. IMO, the first shady use of this would most likely be the war on drugs, if we see that happen than I'll start getting worried.

I think it's pitchfork-worthy when this evidence is used to justify the killing of innocent people on the other side of the world even if it's done in the name of "national security."

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#63

Post by clicks »

rdl wrote: post #59
rayiner wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're really interested in civil liberties, the battle ground is the drug war. Everything becomes less scary once sending people to prison for drug use and possession is taken off the table.

Drug war far and away #1. Gambling and tax evasion might be #2. Child porn is probably morally abhorrent enough (and genuinely rare; if >1% of people out there wanted to fuck 4 year olds, I'd probably try to nuke the planet from orbit) to not be an issue. Maybe terrorism, if "terrorism" is badly interpreted enough to mean any contacts with terrorists, or advocacy of extreme political viewpoints.

> if >1% of people out there wanted to fuck 4 year olds, I'd probably try to nuke the planet from orbit

Er, you should be wary in nuking only people who've done the crimes, not just those who 'want' to (even if it's something like child porn).

That aside, I'm a big fan of the philosophy that if X causes Y, and Y is something really bad, don't treat Y, do something with X. So, if you have a pattern of priests abusing kids, maybe we should focus on more underlying problems: coerce the church to nullify the moronic rules that prohibit priests from marrying women... and let them live as normal humans live with normal human urges. I know pedophilia strikes a certain chord for people... but everyone deserves justice and dignity, even criminals. The first focus shouldn't be on punishment for the sake of punishment, it should be an action intended to curb future occurrences by studying what causes the bad behavior and indeed tending to those underlying causes.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#64

Post by tptacek »

baddox wrote: post #57
tptacek wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the sense that this doesn't surprise you. My question is: why would it surprise anyone? It's not just that most Americans don't believe they have anything to hide from NSA. It's that they don't have anything to hide from NSA. I'm not invoking the fallacious "nothing to hide" argument; I have stuff I need to keep hidden. But most people really don't , and especially not from NSA.

I have no data to back this up, but I suspect you are wrong. I believe that the majority of American adults (let's say age 18 and above) are guilty of many crimes and that the NSA is very capable of obtaining evidence to convict them. Some of these crimes people are well aware of, like drug use, speeding, or the obvious copyright infringement, but some aren't, like tax crime or breaking safety regulations. As the quo…

For starters: the NSA can't convict anyone; it doesn't have that power.

Next: no matter who obtains information under FISA and how it's obtained, it can't be used as evidence in court unless the proceeding pertains to the objective of the FISA warrant, which itself must pertain to agents of foreign powers. If evidence of, say, drug trafficking is collected against you deliberately via FISA, you can move to suppress that evidence and courts are required to do so. If evidence is collected accidentally against you via FISA, the USG is required to destroy that evidence.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#65

Post by tptacek »

rdl wrote: post #58
tptacek wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most Americans do not believe NSA gives a shit whether they've smoked up before. I don't believe that either.

I would be somewhat concerned that NSA records could be used in employment verification (with NSA, or in government, or in general) in the future. Maybe "smoked pot" would not be a disqualifier, but what if a 22yo NSA candidate did coke at a party or something.

Unlikely the Verizon/Sprint hoovering, which may have been de jure lawful even if it violated the spirit/ intent of the law, the use you propose directly contravenes FISA.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#66

Post by tptacek »

baddox wrote: post #62
craigyk wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. You'll get me too pull out my pitchfork if there is ever evidence this is being used for anything other than national security, I haven't seen that. IMO, the first shady use of this would most likely be the war on drugs, if we see that happen than I'll start getting worried.

I think it's pitchfork-worthy when this evidence is used to justify the killing of innocent people on the other side of the world even if it's done in the name of "national security."

If you believe the entire enterprise of violently suppressing foreign terrorist groups is counterfeit or immoral, you of course aren't going to be convinced by any reasoning mustered by the USG or its supporters.

But what about counterproliferation? The USG has the world's largest and most capable nuclear arsenal. In terrorist cases, reasonable people can disagree about how the USG's interests line up; maybe those cases have just as much to do with energy security or corporate profits as they do with safeguarding innocent citizens. But the same isn't true of proliferation: it really is in the USG's interests to suppress nuclear proliferation. Not coincidentally, nonproliferation is the other objective to which FISA surveillance has recently been put to use.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#67

Post by tptacek »

mindcrime wrote: post #48
adestefan wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do know who appointed them. They are 11 federal judges who are appointed to 7 year terms by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. At least 3 must live within 20 miles of Washington, DC, they can only serve one term, and none can be sitting on the Court of Review.

I stand corrected. But the more important point is that the decisions and discussion are private and without oversight, and the presumption that they basically "rubber stamp" all these surveillance requests. Now, maybe they don't just "rubber stamp" everything. But without more info, who's to say? Edit: Also, for anyone more interested in details of the FISC (some of which I obviously misremembered), here's a good re…

The rubber stamp argument is brandished in any discussion about FISA anywhere, from message boards to NPR. But it's not hard to see that there are at least two phenomenon that can account for it:

(1) That FISA courts are not a meaningful check on the authority of NSA and the FBI to surveil people, or

(2) That the overwhelming majority of FISA cases involve prima facie legitimate surveillance targets.

I do not find (2) that hard to believe. I'm not a firm believer in FedGov competence, but I really don't think NSA analysts are making up random targets; neither, for that matter, does Snowden, who intimated as much when he was interviewed.

(Just because I don't think surveillance in the 2000's has been abusive, it does not follow that I think we should be unconcerned with checks on surveillance).

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#68

Post by tptacek »

baddox wrote: post #61
tptacek wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All federal courts are (basically) free from public accountability. That is literally one of the objectives of the design of the Judicial Branch; complain to the founding fathers.

I disagree. I think the incentives of all branches of government are very similar, and I do think this is a flaw in the design of the United States government. However, I don't think the founding fathers could have done any better, because I believe this is an inherent flaw with any government.

The people don't vote for federal judges, who have lifetime tenure. Federal judges are thus insulated both from popular opinion and, to some extent, from politics. That's all I meant.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#69

Post by rdl »

tptacek wrote: post #65
rdl wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be somewhat concerned that NSA records could be used in employment verification (with NSA, or in government, or in general) in the future. Maybe "smoked pot" would not be a disqualifier, but what if a 22yo NSA candidate did coke at a party or something.

Unlikely the Verizon/Sprint hoovering, which may have been de jure lawful even if it violated the spirit/ intent of the law, the use you propose directly contravenes FISA.

What happens if they make you sign a waiver to allow all their collections to become voluntary disclosures, though. And don't hire you if you refuse.

Getting a clearance already means allowing a bunch of background investigations, medical records, financial records, etc. to be turned over.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#70

Post by tptacek »

rdl wrote: post #69
tptacek wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlikely the Verizon/Sprint hoovering, which may have been de jure lawful even if it violated the spirit/ intent of the law, the use you propose directly contravenes FISA.

What happens if they make you sign a waiver to allow all their collections to become voluntary disclosures, though. And don't hire you if you refuse. Getting a clearance already means allowing a bunch of background investigations, medical records, financial records, etc. to be turned over.

I'm not sure how that could happen under the aegis of FISA.
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