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NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

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Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#81

Post by chongli »

alan_cx wrote: post #57

Neither word apply. "Patriot", to me, suggests a unquestioning loyalty, lack of thought or perspective. "Traitor" suggests selling out both government and people to a foreign enemy. Both are too broad, blunt, and loaded to describe anything useful. What this man did was expose the government for the sake of the very people the government are supposed to answer to. The problem his the the huge disconnect between gover…

pa·tri·ot [pey-tree-uht, -ot or, esp. British, pa-tree-uht]

noun

1. a person who loves, supports, and defends his or her country and its interests with devotion.

2. a person who regards himself or herself as a defender, especially of individual rights, against presumed interference by the federal government.

#2 seems bang-on to me. A perfect description of Snowden.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#82

Post by jivatmanx »

EliRivers wrote: post #20
suyash wrote: post #9

In my opinion, he is a Traitor just like Bradley Manning for jeopardizing National Security.

It's possible to also be a hero for jeopardising national security. Bad nations should be jeopardised. It's how they become good nations. They stay bad nations when their citizens repeat the mantras they've been taught rather than thinking. Bullshit like "My country, right or wrong" and worshipping flags and all that sort of junk. It appears that the United States is still , incredible as it seems, a country producin…

I prefer this Ben Franklin quote, it address the exact same question, but takes a different position:

"The deliberations of the Constitutional Convention of 1787 were held in strict secrecy. Consequently, anxious citizens gathered outside Independence Hall when the proceedings ended in order to learn what had been produced behind closed doors. The answer was provided immediately. A Mrs. Powel of Philadelphia asked Benjamin Franklin, “Well, Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?” With no hesitation whatsoever, Franklin responded, “A republic, if you can keep it.”" (Benjamin Franklin)

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#83

Post by EthanHeilman »

michaelwww wrote: post #80
EthanHeilman wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is because the NSA's spying program only works against those that believe they "have nothing to hide". Terrorists or whistle blowers that take even moderate precautions are immune.

That's another bunch of billions down the drain, unless it's designed for another purpose entirely. A certain segment of the elite have always dreamed about tracking every citizen. Larry Ellison of Oracle famously proposed a National Identity Card. So it goes...

Well not all terrorists take precautions, many are quite stupid and it only takes one to bring a whole network the attention of the NSA. The bigger problem is that even if their false positive rate is really low, they are hoovering so much data that the true positives (dumb terrorists) get drowned out by the noise.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8153539.stm

It's why this sort of large scale surveillance is really only effective as tool for coercing public dissent ("We know all about you Mr. Michaelwww").

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#84

Post by lmg643 »

I'm surprised we haven't seen more discussion of NSA leaker as a potential foreign intelligence coup. Think of the timing, right before a summit with China. And he defects to Hong Kong. Not to get too nutty here, but its worth considering. Arguably our government did all this to try and protect us and here we are going ballistic - what if the leak was a setup to shatter our negotiating leverage? Lesser of two evils kind of thing.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#85

Post by windexh8er »

michaelwww wrote: post #44

Does anyone else find it ironic that they couldn't detect Snowdon communicating with Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras?

Ironic? Not in the least. Even if he only mildly knew about the things he described he has an understanding of the points of tap the state actors have free access to. In all generalities hiding from the NSA should be trivial with simple precautions (as it pertains to the Internet). Part of the problem is that those points of access are generally revered as daily can't-live-withouts and present trivial access and collection easement. The more interesting point will likely be that they don't find him - and then generalizations can be made about the efficacy of the NSA without their crutch. Good old 'Catch Me if You Can'?

TL;DR Just because it's the NSA doesn't mean you can't beat them at what they do. There's always someone in the room smarter than yourself.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#86

Post by tn13 »

The whole idea of having democracy is that people should be able to throw out the people in power in case they make decisions that don't go well with the majority.

I don't have much problem in Government keeping phone records (I don't use a cellphone any way) but I do have a problem they doing this without telling me. NSA leaker has done the right thing. He must be hailed as a hero.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#87

Post by ihsw »

lmg643 wrote: post #84

I'm surprised we haven't seen more discussion of NSA leaker as a potential foreign intelligence coup. Think of the timing, right before a summit with China. And he defects to Hong Kong. Not to get too nutty here, but its worth considering. Arguably our government did all this to try and protect us and here we are going ballistic - what if the leak was a setup to shatter our negotiating leverage? Lesser of two evils k…

It may in fact be the reverse -- he could be a double agent and this could be a publicity stunt. The USG may have determined that this leak was inevitable and they decided to take control of the situation.

What is the end-goal? Legitimizing and expediting the surveillance industrial complex. The recent news about Indian authorities wanting to establish their own surveillance infrastructure certainly has many USG government contractors licking their lips waiting for the purchase orders to roll in.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#88

Post by ppplllok »

godgod wrote: post #4

Edward Snowden is a hero. This is a criminal government. Innocent citizens of the world are now enemies of the US police state.

why he choose the time Obama meeting with Xi, you know they will talk about network hacking issue? why he select Hongkong for asylum ? He was not such simple, he mean it.

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#89

Post by [deleted] »

larrys wrote: post #30
jmduke wrote: post #3

46 points in fifteen minutes and not a single comment? This NSA issue is seeming less and less like a discussion topic and more like a echo chamber, despite the rampant lack of information on all sides of the event.

"46 points in fifteen minutes and not a single comment?" Keep in mind also that when someone submit the same URL as already submitted it increases the count. So someone reading that article and not checking that it's already been posted counts toward that 46. I'm only mentioning because I've done this and I've had stories upvoted to, say, 10 that never were commented on.

[deleted]

Re: NSA leaker is a patriot, not a traitor

#90

Post by myle »

ihsw wrote: post #87
lmg643 wrote: post #84

I'm surprised we haven't seen more discussion of NSA leaker as a potential foreign intelligence coup. Think of the timing, right before a summit with China. And he defects to Hong Kong. Not to get too nutty here, but its worth considering. Arguably our government did all this to try and protect us and here we are going ballistic - what if the leak was a setup to shatter our negotiating leverage? Lesser of two evils k…

It may in fact be the reverse -- he could be a double agent and this could be a publicity stunt. The USG may have determined that this leak was inevitable and they decided to take control of the situation. What is the end-goal? Legitimizing and expediting the surveillance industrial complex. The recent news about Indian authorities wanting to establish their own surveillance infrastructure certainly has many USG gove…

Given few enough data points, you can fit any theory you want.
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