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Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

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Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#31

Post by cinquemb »

mpyne wrote: post #21
cinquemb wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the types of people who are likely to give up their phone number for national political polling reasons, and in that subset, I'd think that is hardly random.

They don't go out and canvass for phone numbers first. If they don't include cell phone numbers it's possible to bias more towards older persons, but that wouldn't invalidate the survey either.

The survey itself? Probably not.

The conclusion most people are likely to draw from it and apply it overarchingly, that is what I question.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#32

Post by mindcrime »

tptacek wrote: post #25
mindcrime wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory, that's why we have the notion of "probable cause" and warrants, etc. But what we have instead, is a "rubber stamp" mechanism from a secret court which - essentially - is completely free from an accountability to the American people. Given that, I don't really care so much what the NSA tries to do... I now realize that the real answer is promotion, advocacy and education around technological tools to evade…

All federal courts are (basically) free from public accountability. That is literally one of the objectives of the design of the Judicial Branch; complain to the founding fathers.

It's not quite the same thing though. Yes, judges are appointed for life, and can't (usually) be removed from office, etc. But with the "regular" federal court system, at least we know who the judges are, who appointed them, and we can see / read / review the actual decisions and what-not. To me, that's a pretty marked difference from the FISA courts.

Nonetheless, I do agree with your basic point. When I get my hands on a TARDIS, I'll be sure to let Thomas Jefferson know how I feel about all this! :-)

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#34

Post by drivebyacct2 »

tptacek wrote: post #11
marknutter wrote: post #8

That's because a majority of Americans don't believe they have anything to hide, or that the stuff they do want to hide is probably so mundane to the average government official that they assume they wouldn't care. I'm guessing the way the survey question is posed has a lot to do with the outcome. Take out the word "terrorism" and I'm sure support would drop. Add the phrase "personal information" and I'm sure it woul…

I get the sense that this doesn't surprise you. My question is: why would it surprise anyone? It's not just that most Americans don't believe they have anything to hide from NSA. It's that they don't have anything to hide from NSA. I'm not invoking the fallacious "nothing to hide" argument; I have stuff I need to keep hidden. But most people really don't , and especially not from NSA.

How many different refutations of "I have nothing to hide" have to be posted before it sinks in what a terrible stance that is? Or are you simply explaining the average person's inner response?

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#35

Post by Alex3917 »

tptacek wrote: post #11
marknutter wrote: post #8

That's because a majority of Americans don't believe they have anything to hide, or that the stuff they do want to hide is probably so mundane to the average government official that they assume they wouldn't care. I'm guessing the way the survey question is posed has a lot to do with the outcome. Take out the word "terrorism" and I'm sure support would drop. Add the phrase "personal information" and I'm sure it woul…

I get the sense that this doesn't surprise you. My question is: why would it surprise anyone? It's not just that most Americans don't believe they have anything to hide from NSA. It's that they don't have anything to hide from NSA. I'm not invoking the fallacious "nothing to hide" argument; I have stuff I need to keep hidden. But most people really don't , and especially not from NSA.

"It's not just that most Americans don't believe they have anything to hide from NSA. It's that they don't have anything to hide from NSA."

I'm not so sure about that. Roughly 90% of Americans use illegal drugs at some point in their lives[1], and supposedly the average American commits 3 felonies per day.[2]

[1] http://www.monitoringthefuture.org/pubs/monographs/vol2_2009...

[2] http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/...

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#36

Post by brymaster »

staunch wrote: post #28

I think I would vote for allowing call logs to be trackable by the NSA. Maybe other things like that, with some checks in place (mostly to prevent this data getting out of their hands). But I want to know about these trade-offs, and I don't care if that makes them less effective. There's no way NSA should be looking at private email, phone, VOIP, social networking communication en masse.

> I think I would vote for allowing call logs to be trackable by the NSA

Why? Someone looking to do harm doesn't use phones (maybe Burners) or other communication methods where they know they'd be easily tracked.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#37

Post by rayiner »

craigyk wrote: post #17
tptacek wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the sense that this doesn't surprise you. My question is: why would it surprise anyone? It's not just that most Americans don't believe they have anything to hide from NSA. It's that they don't have anything to hide from NSA. I'm not invoking the fallacious "nothing to hide" argument; I have stuff I need to keep hidden. But most people really don't , and especially not from NSA.

Yeah. You'll get me too pull out my pitchfork if there is ever evidence this is being used for anything other than national security, I haven't seen that. IMO, the first shady use of this would most likely be the war on drugs, if we see that happen than I'll start getting worried.

If you're really interested in civil liberties, the battle ground is the drug war. Everything becomes less scary once sending people to prison for drug use and possession is taken off the table.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#38

Post by tptacek »

mindcrime wrote: post #27
tptacek wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the sense that this doesn't surprise you. My question is: why would it surprise anyone? It's not just that most Americans don't believe they have anything to hide from NSA. It's that they don't have anything to hide from NSA. I'm not invoking the fallacious "nothing to hide" argument; I have stuff I need to keep hidden. But most people really don't , and especially not from NSA.

But most people really don't, and especially not from NSA. How can we say that though, when we don't really know what the NSA is collecting, what they are doing with it, who they are sharing it with, etc.? The actual data collection per-se aside, one of the biggest problems with this whole setup is that we have allowed the development of a "shadow government" (not in the conspiracy theory sense, mind you) that lacks…

Well, stick me at the place on the Venn diagram of Americans who:

* Have a problem with the NSA getting wholesale access to telephonic metadata for all domestic phone calls.

* Generally do not believe NSA is using that metadata for purposes other than nonproliferation and counterterrorism, where "counterterrorism" means "pursuit of groups with active plans to kill American citizens".

* Agree that the shortcut NSA appears to be taking around existing due process is going to be a problem in the future if it isn't addressed and restricted.

Also, I find the number of acronyms we're tossing around --- NSA, FISA, FAA, &c --- comforting, not alarming. There's a lot of process here. Some of it is really bad and needs to be fixed. But in the 1950s, we had no process; the USG just listened to everything.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#39

Post by mpyne »

Zikes wrote: post #26
mpyne wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the survey was properly randomized, then it's actually probably true that you don't understand statistics...

It's true, I've never taken a statistics course. But, if the experts tell me a 0.0003% sample size is fine so long as it's the RIGHT 0.0003%, then I guess I'll have to concede the point.

The Central Limit Theorem and the Law of Large Numbers are wonderful things.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#40

Post by u2328 »

tstactplsignore wrote: post #4

The even crazier story is this: In 2006, 61% of Democrats thought it was unacceptable, and in 2013, 34% of Democrats think it is unacceptable. I vote as Democrat as the next guy, but that's some crazy double-think going on there.

Cult of personalities, I think. Fascinating, if not terrifying, human trait. People root for their political party like they root for their home team; issues be damned.
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