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Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

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Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#11

Post by tptacek »

marknutter wrote: post #8

That's because a majority of Americans don't believe they have anything to hide, or that the stuff they do want to hide is probably so mundane to the average government official that they assume they wouldn't care. I'm guessing the way the survey question is posed has a lot to do with the outcome. Take out the word "terrorism" and I'm sure support would drop. Add the phrase "personal information" and I'm sure it woul…

I get the sense that this doesn't surprise you. My question is: why would it surprise anyone? It's not just that most Americans don't believe they have anything to hide from NSA. It's that they don't have anything to hide from NSA. I'm not invoking the fallacious "nothing to hide" argument; I have stuff I need to keep hidden. But most people really don't, and especially not from NSA.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#12

Post by tptacek »

baddox wrote: post #10

And I have no problem with them opting in to have their lives and data tracked. The real problem is that everyone is tracked, including those in the minority who do not want their lives and data tracked. But such is democracy.

I don't understand the logic behind this comment. Surveillance against criminals doesn't work if the criminals have to opt-in to the surveillance.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#13

Post by ganeumann »

I think that people like us (that is, people who think in a systems fashion about the electronic communications networks and the data flowing over them) are more likely to view this with alarm than the normals. I think that's because we actually know how much power having things like metadata gives you. The question is, how do we explain this to non-engineers in a way that they will listen to so that they will be as alarmed as we know they should be?

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#14

Post by zobzu »

until ppl get problems, they have no idea what the nsa does with the data. if they have no idea and get no problem, "why would it bother them?"

that yeah. its like if i had the right to sentence anybody on earth to death, but i wasn't doing it too often, and when i do it, nobody has any idea it happened. So people would think its ok.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#15

Post by cinquemb »

mpyne wrote: post #7
Zikes wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny, I've mentioned this for surveys in the past and I keep getting told I don't understand statistics.

If the survey was properly randomized, then it's actually probably true that you don't understand statistics...

Depends on the types of people who are likely to give up their phone number for national political polling reasons, and in that subset, I'd think that is hardly random.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#16

Post by entangld »

I'd like to see more surveys or reviews of this survey's methods. It isn't difficult for the phrasing of the questions to skew results in one direction or another (e.g. Gallup).

I'm sure it's possible for people to be a bit apathetic and support widespread data snooping, but I'm wary of the inevitable attacks and possible drummed up support for current policies.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#17

Post by craigyk »

tptacek wrote: post #11
marknutter wrote: post #8

That's because a majority of Americans don't believe they have anything to hide, or that the stuff they do want to hide is probably so mundane to the average government official that they assume they wouldn't care. I'm guessing the way the survey question is posed has a lot to do with the outcome. Take out the word "terrorism" and I'm sure support would drop. Add the phrase "personal information" and I'm sure it woul…

I get the sense that this doesn't surprise you. My question is: why would it surprise anyone? It's not just that most Americans don't believe they have anything to hide from NSA. It's that they don't have anything to hide from NSA. I'm not invoking the fallacious "nothing to hide" argument; I have stuff I need to keep hidden. But most people really don't , and especially not from NSA.

Yeah. You'll get me too pull out my pitchfork if there is ever evidence this is being used for anything other than national security, I haven't seen that. IMO, the first shady use of this would most likely be the war on drugs, if we see that happen than I'll start getting worried.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#18

Post by ics »

tptacek wrote: post #12
baddox wrote: post #10

And I have no problem with them opting in to have their lives and data tracked. The real problem is that everyone is tracked, including those in the minority who do not want their lives and data tracked. But such is democracy.

I don't understand the logic behind this comment. Surveillance against criminals doesn't work if the criminals have to opt-in to the surveillance.

It's reasonable if you believe that it can also work as an alibi. It would be like state level fraud protection for those who do opt in, and obviously a mark of suspicion towards those who don't.

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#19

Post by GHFigs »

wavefunction wrote: post #5

Keep in mind many Americans have never traveled outside the country, they are fed a constant diet of bullshit by our media alternating between frantic fear-mongering and gushing American paternalism, and simply don't stop to think about what is actually going on. I would call them complete morons but that is unkind. Incurious and ignorant and perhaps far too trusting is perhaps more polite.

What's the polite word for elitist?

Re: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic

#20

Post by mindcrime »

tptacek wrote: post #12
baddox wrote: post #10

And I have no problem with them opting in to have their lives and data tracked. The real problem is that everyone is tracked, including those in the minority who do not want their lives and data tracked. But such is democracy.

I don't understand the logic behind this comment. Surveillance against criminals doesn't work if the criminals have to opt-in to the surveillance.

In theory, that's why we have the notion of "probable cause" and warrants, etc. But what we have instead, is a "rubber stamp" mechanism from a secret court which - essentially - is completely free from an accountability to the American people.

Given that, I don't really care so much what the NSA tries to do... I now realize that the real answer is promotion, advocacy and education around technological tools to evade their snooping (assuming, for the sake of argument, that they can't break strong crypto). My goal going forward is to dive into helping promote the use of, and education regarding, Tor, I2P, PGP, and their ilk. Part of that is going to mean educating myself to a considerable degree as well, as I've admittedly been too cavalier about this stuff in the past.

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