Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

washingtonpost.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

311–320 of 366 posts

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#311

Post by zanny »

youngerdryas wrote: post #13
_airh wrote: post #8

It is strange that the same country which cherishes its 'right to bear arms' on the grounds that it gives them a level of protection that the government is unable to provide is 'happy' to build the infrastructure which allows the same government to peek into their lives. On the one hand, we don't trust the government with the basics (physical security). On the other, we trust them with information we don't want our p…

Not exactly. A lot of people voted for Obama because he promised more transparency. He appears to be breaking his promises. If he was smart, which he hasn't seemed lately, he would use this crisis to try to regain some credibility.

He is the president of the United States. He is smart. A lot of background characters love it when you question the intellect of your leaders because you see intended aggression and depravity as incompetance and stupidity. Never blame a goverments wrongs on incompetance, blame them on those responsible and expect them to have a functional brain, because to get into the positions they have, they do have working brains, and know exactly what they are doing.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#312

Post by marcosdumay »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #100
mtgx wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So is the 4th amendment, and look how much that one is abused. In the end the Constitution really is "just a piece of paper", if not the government , not the judges , not the media , and ultimately not even the people respect it, live by it, and try to protect it as soon as it's endangered by people trying to accumulate too much power. Where are all the street protests?! I also fail to understand people who so viciou…

Where are all the street protests?! The people who went to the streets protesting in 2011 got arrested. You're looking at the maturation of a tyrannical, authoritarian neoliberal regime.

> tyrannical, authoritarian neoliberal

One of those adjectives has an almost oposite meaning to the other two.

Please, don't just throw "bad" words in a setence if you are trying to make a point. Understand what you are saying, and if you don't completely grasp the meaning of a word, either look it up, or not use it.

The way you wrote it, you sound like a South America neofacist (and yes, I just made up a label). And I'm quite sure you are not proposing creating a facist government hidden behind populist policiy, thus you should not speack like one.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#313

Post by philwelch »

bmelton wrote: post #230
davidcuddeback wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you cite a source for this information?

Yes (this isn't meant to be sarcastic, but necessary because I had to move this post from where it was to where it is, and HN keeps marking it dead). The DHS is not bound by Posse Comitatus[1]. The DHS has been buying massive amounts of ammo[2][3][4], and most recently, the House has voted to get justification on the quantity of hollow points it is purchasing[5]. It looks like the claim that they're buying large quan…

What style of ammunition is standard police issue? Hollowpoint? FMJ?

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#314

Post by philwelch »

talmand wrote: post #183
philwelch wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's somewhat fortunate that the actual military is, if anything, the least likely threat. Almost all of the veterans I've known would take the people's side. So if it came down to it, I could see large amounts of the military refusing orders or defecting. The main risk is probably paramilitaries like the ATF or your local SWAT team. One of the neat ways the Second Amendment is self-enforcing is that, if you sent tho…

I've always thought the 2nd amendment wasn't necessarily totally aimed at the federal level of government, but at the state and local levels as well. One could say that it is almost aimed entirely at the state and local levels. When the Constitution was written, the US didn't normally have a permanent standing army. It allowed for a navy, but an army was only intended for times of war and monies for it to be used for…

It's also somewhat aimed at foreign invasions. "The security of a free state" goes both ways--a free state securing itself, and securing the freedom of the state.

The Japanese were pretty worried about landing on the West Coast because they'd have to fight through miles of woods, filled with Americans who knew the land, carrying hunting rifles.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#315

Post by md224 »

otsuichi wrote: post #287
rayiner wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that he's arguing about precisely where the line should be drawn, not offering an example of the police engaging in clearly unreasonable conduct. You can't claim that the 4th amendment has fallen by the wayside just because you disagree about precisely where the courts have drawn the lines in edge cases. You need some stronger evidence than that.

I think, looking at the facts of Kentucky vs. King, that's pretty clearly a concise example of the police engaging in unreasonable conduct.

Actually, I'm not so sure, after reading this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exigent_circumstance_in_United_...

Of course, it all comes down to how reasonable you think our current criminal law policies are.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#316

Post by munificent »

Andrew_Quentin wrote: post #274
munificent wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where are all the street protests?! I'm going to interpret that question literally. A key thing you have to keep in mind is that in almost all of the US outside of a few very large cities, the "street" is not a useful public place. People don't gather and interact on streets in the US. They are merely channels for cars. Protesting on the streets would be as useful in most cities in the US as wandering around next t…

Squares or city centres are a good place, the Times Square being probably the best.

Most cities in the US don't have squares or city centers. Even ones that do exist are often empty, or inhabited more by the homeless than anyone else.

I believe the culture is improving here, but for a long time, cars were such important symbol of wealth that being a pedestrian gained a small but real social stigma. Large cities that were already thriving and had very affluent people who didn't drive bucked the trend, but in your average city in the US, if you're on a street and not driving, you look poor, mentally unstable, or homeless.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#317

Post by md224 »

mpyne wrote: post #303
rhizome wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider that the legal definition of "legitimate" is what's changed.

That's the whole point to 'reasonable' though. It allows the effect of the law to change without changing the law itself. This has worked against the government as often as it's worked for the government. And on the whole it has been instrumental in driving social change for the better. The same Supreme Court that voted that equality could exist with "sepatate-but-equal" facilities later voted that separate-but-equal…

Not sure I follow why this is a valid retort... grandparent comment was not arguing against the flexibility of "reasonable," but rather the direction the interpretation is being taken in. I agree that creating future-proofed laws with wiggle room can be beneficial, but that does not mean we have no need to be vigilant against that same wiggle room being used against us.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#318

Post by bmelton »

philwelch wrote: post #313
bmelton wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes (this isn't meant to be sarcastic, but necessary because I had to move this post from where it was to where it is, and HN keeps marking it dead). The DHS is not bound by Posse Comitatus[1]. The DHS has been buying massive amounts of ammo[2][3][4], and most recently, the House has voted to get justification on the quantity of hollow points it is purchasing[5]. It looks like the claim that they're buying large quan…

What style of ammunition is standard police issue? Hollowpoint? FMJ?

As with all things, it varies, but hollow points and sabot rounds tend to be popular due to their better record on overpenetration.

Frangible rounds provide a far lower likelihood than an errant shot will punch through the wall and kill whatever's on the other side of it (which is why they're also the preferred rounds for home defense and such too).

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#319

Post by talmand »

rbanffy wrote: post #243
talmand wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were groups who have protested who had no serious arrests to report. There were some groups that had a heavy amount of arrests. If one were to look at all the groups protesting recently with an objective eye I'm sure examples can be found that show why one group had such results.

Could you clarify that?

I wish I could but it would likely turn into an argument over partisan politics and name-calling. I'd rather not to do that.

What I would suggest is look into major political protests over the past few years and draw your own conclusions from their outcomes.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#320

Post by talmand »

malandrew wrote: post #275
talmand wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were groups who have protested who had no serious arrests to report. There were some groups that had a heavy amount of arrests. If one were to look at all the groups protesting recently with an objective eye I'm sure examples can be found that show why one group had such results.

If I were to bet on the most significant predictor of arrests during a protest, my money would be on size. The fewer people present in a protest, the more likely that it will be left alone and no arrests will be made. The more people there are, the more likely that those in charge will try to "contain it" through actions that lead to altercations and arrests. I'd say that it's pretty much impossible to have a Tiananm…

That may be in the case in some situations, but I can recall several major, i.e. large, protests that resulted in very few arrests or problems with the police. In fact, some of them were a quite pleasant crowd if the reports were to be believed.

Sadly, you just generally don't hear much of them in the news.

Post reply on HN