Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum? • Hacker News Board

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#301

Post by gohrt » Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 6:05 PM UTC

reader5000 wrote: post #155

angersock wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To play the other side... Look at what happens to every group of well-educated, well-informed, politically active people when they go up against an authority. Look at the Prague Spring (speaking of holding the government in Czech), at Occupy Oakland, and what's happened in Turkey most recently. Free speech and free assembly merely mean that you can call the jackbooted thugs names as they crack open the heads of you a…

What? It's easier to find inbred retards who want to shoot at "the Man" than actually maintaining an educated populace, so therefore we "cherish" the 2a? That is quite a novel interpretation of the 2a.

No, parent was saying that it easier for an educated subset of the populace to shoot at the Man than to educate her "inbred, retard" (to use your phrase) peers.

Exhibit A: the American Revolution.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#302

Post by mpyne » Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 6:14 PM UTC

Abundnce10 wrote: post #235

munificent wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where are all the street protests?! I'm going to interpret that question literally. A key thing you have to keep in mind is that in almost all of the US outside of a few very large cities, the "street" is not a useful public place. People don't gather and interact on streets in the US. They are merely channels for cars. Protesting on the streets would be as useful in most cities in the US as wandering around next t…

You bring up a good point. Maybe the best form of protest these days is not to take to the streets but rather take to the highways. Blocking a interstate highway going into/out of a large city might get more attention.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't care if you're protesting to support feeding starving kids, if you actually block traffic on a highway I will vote against your pet issue 100% of the time.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#303

Post by mpyne » Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 6:18 PM UTC

rhizome wrote: post #263

rayiner wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hate to use the slippery slope argument Slippery slope reasoning is completely incompatible with 4th amendment interpretation, because the 4th amendment is all about what is "reasonable" (or rather, what is "unreasonable.") It's about compromising the legitimate needs of the police with the legitimate privacy interests of the people. You can't make compromises when your retort to everything becomes: "but if we ke…

Consider that the legal definition of "legitimate" is what's changed.

That's the whole point to 'reasonable' though. It allows the effect of the law to change without changing the law itself.

This has worked against the government as often as it's worked for the government. And on the whole it has been instrumental in driving social change for the better.

The same Supreme Court that voted that equality could exist with "sepatate-but-equal" facilities later voted that separate-but-equal was not reasonable and full integration was required instead.

This drives "strict Constitutionalists" batty but I find it's one of the key benefits of our system of government.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#304

Post by astrodust » Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 6:22 PM UTC

Zak wrote: post #256

astrodust wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guns are an important tool, but it's Improvised Explosive Devices that are causing the majority of the casualties, over 63% of them in Iraq and 66% in Afghanistan. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improvised_explosive_device ) A lot of the guns in circulation in Iraq were liberated from the army and police, or acquired through corrupt channels, originally provided by the coalition forces themselves. You credit a well a…

An advantage of an armed population is a large number of people skilled in the use of arms. Most people cannot reliably hit a person-sized target at several hundred meters the first time they pick up a rifle. Make that target a trained soldier who's moving and shooting back and the disadvantage grows much larger.

I doubt the average American that owns a gun could hit a tin can at twenty feet.

On the other hand, a random Israeli has probably participated in mandatory military service even if they don't own a gun.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#305

Post by zanny » Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 6:24 PM UTC

bostonpete wrote: post #286

mindcrime wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd guess that there are plenty of 2nd amendment supporters who would be happy to ban flag-burning... There are indeed, and I know more than a few of them. They post on the same gun forums I do. What you see among the "pro gun" crowd is a pretty clearly ideological divide between Libertarians and traditional Conservatives. The Libertarians take the 1A, 4A, 5A, etc. just as seriously as the 2A, whereas the more tradit…

> many people seem to assume that most active 2A advocates What's a 2A advocate? I don't think there's any substantial opposition to the 2nd amendment itself. The main discussion surrounding 2A tends to come up any time any sort of restrictions surrounding gun control are raised. Then the crowd of people who view any sort of gun control (background checks!!) as an attack on the 2nd amendment start coming out of the w…

Well, it is an attack to restrict firearms ownership. Remember the original purpose of the 2ed was to arm the citizenry against tyrrany. So if government can restrict your access or avaiability of firearms (especially those said government actively uses in its military) they are restricting your ability to arm yourselves against them.

It doesn't hurt that the framers didn't conceptualize nuclear weapons or ICBMs, though. Back in 1800, it was perfectly reasonable to expect if the US military could have a mortar, a citizen could. Though I'm more of the opinion if you wouldn't trust your neighbor with some destructive tool than you shouldn't trust the US military with it.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#306

Post by emini_guy » Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 6:24 PM UTC

XaspR8d wrote: post #253

munificent wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where are all the street protests?! I'm going to interpret that question literally. A key thing you have to keep in mind is that in almost all of the US outside of a few very large cities, the "street" is not a useful public place. People don't gather and interact on streets in the US. They are merely channels for cars. Protesting on the streets would be as useful in most cities in the US as wandering around next t…

I really appreciate this viewpoint, because I was trying to understand the apparent disconnect between my American and European friends on the suggestion of protesting, and now I do think the function of public space has much to do with it (also overall size of the country).

It does not. It's a very lame excuse. There were heavy protests in this country during the Vietnam war. Not any more, but that has nothing to do with the streets. Americans don't care. Period.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#307

Post by jlgreco » Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 6:25 PM UTC

bostonpete wrote: post #286

mindcrime wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd guess that there are plenty of 2nd amendment supporters who would be happy to ban flag-burning... There are indeed, and I know more than a few of them. They post on the same gun forums I do. What you see among the "pro gun" crowd is a pretty clearly ideological divide between Libertarians and traditional Conservatives. The Libertarians take the 1A, 4A, 5A, etc. just as seriously as the 2A, whereas the more tradit…

> many people seem to assume that most active 2A advocates What's a 2A advocate? I don't think there's any substantial opposition to the 2nd amendment itself. The main discussion surrounding 2A tends to come up any time any sort of restrictions surrounding gun control are raised. Then the crowd of people who view any sort of gun control (background checks!!) as an attack on the 2nd amendment start coming out of the w…

Most of your stereotyped gun owners do not have a categorical opposition to gun control laws. For example, most are not particularly upset with the ban on new machine guns that has been in place for many years. Rather most of the opposition that you see is against pointless laws that target particular cosmetic features of some guns ("assault weapon" laws) or actually overreaching gun laws that pop up in particular cities in particular states.

There is little focus on the national laws that are already in place, laws that particular states have or are trying to have are what get the attention of the gun lobbyists.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#308

Post by mindcrime » Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 6:25 PM UTC

bostonpete wrote: post #286

mindcrime wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd guess that there are plenty of 2nd amendment supporters who would be happy to ban flag-burning... There are indeed, and I know more than a few of them. They post on the same gun forums I do. What you see among the "pro gun" crowd is a pretty clearly ideological divide between Libertarians and traditional Conservatives. The Libertarians take the 1A, 4A, 5A, etc. just as seriously as the 2A, whereas the more tradit…

> many people seem to assume that most active 2A advocates What's a 2A advocate? I don't think there's any substantial opposition to the 2nd amendment itself. The main discussion surrounding 2A tends to come up any time any sort of restrictions surrounding gun control are raised. Then the crowd of people who view any sort of gun control (background checks!!) as an attack on the 2nd amendment start coming out of the w…

I don't think there's any substantial opposition to the 2nd amendment itself.

Your experiences may differ from mine, but when I get into debates about gun-control / 2A issues, I find it to be very commonplace for people to insist that the 2A is useless, outdated, and state that it should be repealed. Believe it or not, there is a not-insignificant number of people out there who are for total civilian disarmament.

And then there are the bulk of people who seem to be more or less ambivalent, or apathetic about it all. They aren't out to attack the 2A, but they aren't interested in going to any great length to fight for it either.

What's a 2A advocate?

In my book, somebody who identifies "gun rights" as an issue of specific importance to them, and takes some specific action: donating to the NRA/GOA/2AF/JPFO/etc., voting, campaigning, running for office, or something of that nature, with an intent to defend gun rights.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#309

Post by zanny » Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 6:27 PM UTC

antoko wrote: post #268

mindcrime wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, how does owning a gun provide protection against the US military? I don't understand why people keep asking this question, and variations of it, or offering up the argument "the 2A is useless for allowing rebellion since you can't defeat the US military". Bands of rebels armed with mostly light weapons have caused superpowers all sorts of issues: See Afghanistan, from the Soviet era through today. And if a full…

If you've got the popular support you're eluding to you'd be fine with baseball bats and molotov cocktails. You'd also be fine to steal the guns and other weapons of military/police forces as you have victorious encounters. You wouldn't actually need the guns in the first place.

It is much harder to start a revolution with steak knives than hunting rifles. I mean, consider why you don't actively participate in violent revolution right now (assuming you are dissenting against your government for some reason). Usually, it is because of the risk of injury and death.

You do reduce it when you bring a gun to a tank / plane / automatic weapons fight, rather than a knife. It isn't meant to provide all the armaments you need, but it leaves you a starting point.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#310

Post by mindcrime » Mon, Jun 10, 2013, 6:29 PM UTC

mtgx wrote: post #32

newbie12 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The right to bear arms is also, explicitly, a protection against tyranny BY the government. Thomas Jefferson: ""When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

So is the 4th amendment, and look how much that one is abused. In the end the Constitution really is "just a piece of paper", if not the government , not the judges , not the media , and ultimately not even the people respect it, live by it, and try to protect it as soon as it's endangered by people trying to accumulate too much power. Where are all the street protests?! I also fail to understand people who so viciou…

Where are all the street protests?!

Over the digital privacy / 4A issue specifically? I don't know. But protests in general are still quite alive, here in North Carolina.[1][2][3]

[1]: http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/05/13/2890544/nc-moral-mond...

[2]: http://www.wral.com/-mega-moral-monday-protests-heat-up-outs...

[3]: http://www.thenation.com/article/174679/protesters-shake-nor...