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Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

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Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#151

Post by rdl »

_airh wrote: post #8

It is strange that the same country which cherishes its 'right to bear arms' on the grounds that it gives them a level of protection that the government is unable to provide is 'happy' to build the infrastructure which allows the same government to peek into their lives. On the one hand, we don't trust the government with the basics (physical security). On the other, we trust them with information we don't want our p…

A lot of cypherpunk type people (who are generally pro 2a/guns to a great degree) believe anonymous and secure communication through cryptography is more of a 2A issue than a 1A or 4A issue.

A "CALEA 3", key escrow requirement, ban on the Internet, etc would cross my red line. Banning all guns would, too, although unclear exactly where the line is (a total handgun ban probably wouldn't be enough). Obviously legal and political challenges first.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#152

Post by bilbo0s »

kyrra wrote: post #118
stevoski wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "that think they possess the truth and are right about everything" All those things I listed are well-documented. For the sake of keeping my post short I didn't post links to the appropriate Wikipedia articles nor to mainstream US online newspapers that reported the events.

powertower did not imply that anything you originally listed as incorrect, but saying that you are looking at a very small part of what the US does. I'm pretty sure we could look at any person or government, find all their past flaws/mistakes and only list this to show that the person is 'evil'. But without looking at the bigger picture of everything they do, you aren't being fair with your judgement of that person/c…

We're never fair in our judgements...

just ask any black guy in a court room.

Weighing information is the nature of judgement. Sometimes we don't know what we don't know. Sometimes we don't care what we don't know. Sometimes we don't care even though we know. It's the nature of the human machine.

This is the principal reason for the old adage "Life's Unfair".

It's just that we usually won't notice that until it's unfair to us.

We should fix these negative things as they come up instead of doing the gymnastics it takes to justify them. You never want to get caught fighting a rear guard action against the truth.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#153

Post by freehunter »

jebblue wrote: post #144
stevoski wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "that think they possess the truth and are right about everything" All those things I listed are well-documented. For the sake of keeping my post short I didn't post links to the appropriate Wikipedia articles nor to mainstream US online newspapers that reported the events.

>> All those things I listed are well-documented. So are many of the positive events powertower mentioned. Either way, you don't even live in your own native country let alone the US, you don't have a dog in this hunt. Oh, and if you think Spain is a good example of a decent place to live; look up those bull runs. Barbaric.

I think that's a little harsh. We don't know the reasons why he's not living in NZ or why he's in Spain. Calling that into question and using that as an excuse to dismiss his claims is just wrong.

I'm not agreeing with him and I'm not disagreeing with you. I just don't think the way you're attacking him is entirely appropriate.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#154

Post by flyinRyan »

powertower wrote: post #79
josephagoss wrote: post #2

Americans might not realise this but we see the USA in the same light as China and Russia when it comes to freedoms. We might be wrong, but thats the perception myself and many other people from outside the USA see the current state of the situation. To think anyone would feel safe in the USA is ridiculous, the USA is one of the last places anyone should seek refuge in modern times. What scares me most is the United…

> To think anyone would feel safe in the USA is ridiculous I feel perfectly safe. This whole entire issue about the government collecting meta-data is overblown IMO. And comparing it to tyranny and demanding rioting on the streets is literally self-destructive and utmost retarded. Maybe you need to compare it to a country like the Republic of Congo to get an idea of what's safe and what's not. But instead the majorit…

>Maybe you need to compare it to a country like the Republic of Congo to get an idea of what's safe and what's not.

Modern US patriotism at its finest: find the shittiest place you can think of and compare the US to that to show how great it is.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#155

Post by reader5000 »

angersock wrote: post #73
Retric wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having guns does little to hold government in chech. A well educated, well informed, and politically active populace on the other hand is a strait jacket. Which is why free assembly and free speech are so important.

To play the other side... Look at what happens to every group of well-educated, well-informed, politically active people when they go up against an authority. Look at the Prague Spring (speaking of holding the government in Czech), at Occupy Oakland, and what's happened in Turkey most recently. Free speech and free assembly merely mean that you can call the jackbooted thugs names as they crack open the heads of you a…

What? It's easier to find inbred retards who want to shoot at "the Man" than actually maintaining an educated populace, so therefore we "cherish" the 2a?

That is quite a novel interpretation of the 2a.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#156

Post by freehunter »

xtracto wrote: post #117
zmb_ wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a European I wouldn't say I see the USA in the same light as China and Russia, but I definitely feel uncomfortable when I have to travel to the US for work. Given the US's recent track record with human rights and the ongoing mass surveillance, I just can't be sure some innocent comment on some website I've made at some point won't flag me and cause me to be indefinitely detained. I know it's probably not likely,…

Did you have to take a photograph and save your 10 fingerprints and disclose all your personal and economic information to get into the USA? I had to... because it seems for the USA, any Mexican that dares to enter the country is a potential criminal, so there I am in the huge Mexa database. Just because I needed to spend a week in the USA for work. Whereas the 7 years I lived in Europe (UK and Germany) I did not fee…

That's likely because the US views themselves as unofficially being at war with Mexico. The only thing missing from the conflict is the cruise missiles.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#157

Post by philwelch »

randomsearch wrote: post #91
newbie12 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The right to bear arms is also, explicitly, a protection against tyranny BY the government. Thomas Jefferson: ""When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

Interesting. But, how does owning a gun provide protection against the US military?

It's somewhat fortunate that the actual military is, if anything, the least likely threat. Almost all of the veterans I've known would take the people's side. So if it came down to it, I could see large amounts of the military refusing orders or defecting.

The main risk is probably paramilitaries like the ATF or your local SWAT team. One of the neat ways the Second Amendment is self-enforcing is that, if you sent those guys house to house to confiscate people's firearms, they'd get shot at.

It also ends up being really handy to stand up to the local authorities from time to time: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Athens_(1946) http://m.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/09/the-secret...

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#158

Post by criley »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #100
mtgx wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So is the 4th amendment, and look how much that one is abused. In the end the Constitution really is "just a piece of paper", if not the government , not the judges , not the media , and ultimately not even the people respect it, live by it, and try to protect it as soon as it's endangered by people trying to accumulate too much power. Where are all the street protests?! I also fail to understand people who so viciou…

Where are all the street protests?! The people who went to the streets protesting in 2011 got arrested. You're looking at the maturation of a tyrannical, authoritarian neoliberal regime.

I like you said "got arrested" instead of "got thrown into jail indefinitely".

Are any Occupiers in prison without having committed crimes worthy of the sentence?

Or are you just being extremely hyperbolic?

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#159

Post by theklub »

_airh wrote: post #8

It is strange that the same country which cherishes its 'right to bear arms' on the grounds that it gives them a level of protection that the government is unable to provide is 'happy' to build the infrastructure which allows the same government to peek into their lives. On the one hand, we don't trust the government with the basics (physical security). On the other, we trust them with information we don't want our p…

People aren't happy about this. Most don't even know about it. The one's that do know about it can't do anything. There simply aren't enough politically active people in this country and far less young ones. Don't confuse what the media says with what people actually feel or want.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#160

Post by smacktoward »

onebaddude wrote: post #60
tekmate wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's more about the perception than actual levels of freedom, the US is a country that tortures, detains people from all over the world indefinitely without trial in an offshore location, bails out bankers while promoting austerity for everyone else, spies on people worldwide, starts wars all over the world, uses remotely controlled killing machines and most of that isn't even new, the veil of the american dream has…

> "bails out bankers while promoting austerity for everyone else" How does that work exactly? Do banks operate in a vacuum in the economy? It's my understanding that social program spending (and hence the deficit) over the recession was at all time highs. "Main Street" got its share of the bail out, as it should have.

Social program spending goes up when unemployment goes up, because unemployed/underemployed people are the ones who need unemployment insurance, food stamps, etc. When you suddenly have a lot of unemployed/underemployed people, you'll have a spike in spending for those programs. But that doesn't mean any of those people are getting more than they used to.
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