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Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

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Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#191

Post by shpxnvz »

rayiner wrote: post #65
mtgx wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So is the 4th amendment, and look how much that one is abused. In the end the Constitution really is "just a piece of paper", if not the government , not the judges , not the media , and ultimately not even the people respect it, live by it, and try to protect it as soon as it's endangered by people trying to accumulate too much power. Where are all the street protests?! I also fail to understand people who so viciou…

The 4th amendment is strong as it has ever been, and the 1st is much stronger.[1] Are police knocking down your door without a warrant? If not that's the 4th amendment working as intended. What we have here is a system: 1) Clearly designed to pass a 4th amendment analysis; 2) Enabled to to pass such scrutiny be the unprecedented access Americans give corporations to the details of their private lives. For what its wo…

> Are police knocking down your door without a warrant? If not that's the 4th amendment working as intended.

Damn right they are. Exigent circumstances. [1]

Police routinely coerce people into consenting to searches during traffic stops when there is no RAS. If there's a K9 unit around it's even easier; look at how often they just happen to trigger when there's no contraband at all [2]. Does a 56% false positive rate sound reasonable?

And, once they've gained access they've got wide leeway to seize whatever they want in the name of the war on drugs. At that point the owner must pay a bond to contest the seizure, and then has the burden of proving that they were not party to the crime. Note that no warrant is required for property seizure, merely probable cause [3].

[1] http://themoderatevoice.com/110361/supreme-court-expands-war... [2] http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/06/false-positives-police... [3] BJA publication NCJ-137994 – CIVIL FORFEITURE FOR THE NON-LAWYER

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#192

Post by munificent »

mtgx wrote: post #32
newbie12 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The right to bear arms is also, explicitly, a protection against tyranny BY the government. Thomas Jefferson: ""When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

So is the 4th amendment, and look how much that one is abused. In the end the Constitution really is "just a piece of paper", if not the government , not the judges , not the media , and ultimately not even the people respect it, live by it, and try to protect it as soon as it's endangered by people trying to accumulate too much power. Where are all the street protests?! I also fail to understand people who so viciou…

> Where are all the street protests?!

I'm going to interpret that question literally. A key thing you have to keep in mind is that in almost all of the US outside of a few very large cities, the "street" is not a useful public place. People don't gather and interact on streets in the US. They are merely channels for cars. Protesting on the streets would be as useful in most cities in the US as wandering around next to a shipping lane on the open ocean. The only people "there" are driving vehicles at full speed.

That of course raises the question of where Americans do congregate together. Churches are the answer for many, although I believe those are dwindling. Some go to bars. Neither of those is a particularly good venue for dissent.

One unfortunate consequence of the US being so car-centric is that we've destroyed public space, and consequently made public assembly much harder.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#193

Post by justin66 »

jpdoctor wrote: post #121
newbie12 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The right to bear arms is also, explicitly, a protection against tyranny BY the government. Thomas Jefferson: ""When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

> Thomas Jefferson: ""When governments fear the people, there is liberty. Looks like false attribution according to wikiquote. (Why do people feel the need to use proof by authority anyway? Either a thing is right, or it is insightful, but attributing it to dead 18th century rebels does not bolster the case.) ________________________________ When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the…

> Why do people feel the need to use proof by authority anyway? Either a thing is right, or it is insightful, but attributing it to dead 18th rebels does not bolster the case.

There's at least one completely made up Orwell quote that gets kicked around quite a bit by conservatives. ("rough men") That one is weird: you'd think those people would be happy to NOT quote Orwell if they knew anything about his politics.

I assume it's less about argument from authority and more about just a lack of eloquence or confidence on the part of the person relying on quotations to make their point.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#194

Post by riggins »

jvictor118 wrote: post #177
stevoski wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, as a New Zealander living in Spain. I've been staggered over the last decade or so to hear of the USA performing: * "extraordinary renditions" (kidnapping), sometimes of the wrong person who after months gets dumped in Albania. * "enhanced interrogation techniques" such as waterboarding (torture) * holding people indefinitely without charge or trial in Guantanamo Bay * killing people remotely in foreign coun…

As an American living an America, I have to disagree with you. First of all, if you really didn't know the U.S. government and military had some creepy capabilities, you're not living on planet earth. Anyone with a brainstem and a basic interest in security and crypto can decipher this basic truth. Many even believe they can crack RSA and similar encryption schemes. Second of all, I don't begrudge any country their r…

to put my reply in context.

I live in NYC. I used to be in the WTC on a weekly basis for business. I was in Rockefeller Center when anthrax was found in Rockefeller Center (that was actually kinda scary). I'm aware that 'PRISM' purportedly prevented a NYC subway bombing. This isn't to say I'm 'so brave'. It's just to give the context that I'm not removed from the situation.

With that context, I'd much rather take my chances with increased terrorist activity than give the government expanded surveillance powers.

Also, I agree with this.

http://www.balloon-juice.com/2013/06/09/i-am-so-fucking-over...

you want to see the villain, look in the mirror. It’s the pants-wetting populace of the United States, who votes for these assholes who pass bad laws in moments of crisis, because we have to do something and because Americans, unlike every other nation in the world, have a god given right to be safe at all times from all things.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#195

Post by powertower »

Ygg2 wrote: post #174
powertower wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> America doesn't have a school shooting problem because all human societies develop shooting problems, it has them because America specifically squeezes its youth in ways that makes them more violent. That's actually a good point you're making against yourself, because I went to a public school from grades 4-12, and spent 5 years in state college. Not once was a gun fired. And most people will say the same. What you…

> Yet the "school shooting" incidence in the last 40 years can be counted on two hands. Wow, you are either not informed, not human (got like 100 fingers per hand?) or using some very narrow definition of school shooting (like children below 6 in Michigan). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the...

I've seen that list many times before and was even going to post it myself. I'm guessing you just skimmed over it and did not read the notes.

So let me rephrase, how many school shooting can you count on your hands that you knew about? I'm guessing you won't make it pass your two hands.

I'm not going to count crime infested ghetto area school shootings that involve a 70% dropout and incarceration rate, where one student shoots another over some argument over a girl. Nor gang related violence in those same schools. They will do that in and out of school as much as anywhere else. It's not related to any particlar place or time.

I'm not going to count a depressed kid that goes into the school to commit suicide in the bathroom. Nor someone that purposely shoots someone else in the butt and gives up. Or attempts to murder one single person at school because they don't know were that other person lives and it's convinent... All those things have nothing to do with schools.

What I'm going to do is only count real school shootings that involve someone walking in and trying to kill as many people as possible. And weight that against all the non-school shooting events in relation to the the number of pupils, schools, and days. Guess what happens then?

Data should always be filtered, outliers removed, then normalized or standardized.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#196

Post by shpxnvz »

rayiner wrote: post #102
anon1385 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The 4th amendment is strong as it has ever been […] Are police knocking down your door without a warrant? Yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky_v._King Justice Ginsburg , dissenting. The Court today arms the police with a way routinely to dishonor the Fourth Amendment ’s warrant requirement in drug cases. In lieu of presenting their evidence to a neutral magistrate, police officers may now knock, listen, then…

You're haggling over the definition of "reasonable", probably based on your views of the drug laws. Do you think that in 1800, the framers would have considered it an unreasonable search to enter a home they could hear being burglarized? No. That's why the 4th uses the wiggle word "unreasonable." I'd bet the reason you think Kentucky is different is that you think drugs are a non crime. I do too, but lots of people d…

He's haggling over your objectively incorrect claim that the police are not knocking down doors without warrants. They clearly are.

Whether these cases fits the reasonability test is another matter.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#197

Post by bmelton »

weego wrote: post #75
newbie12 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The right to bear arms is also, explicitly, a protection against tyranny BY the government. Thomas Jefferson: ""When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

Which is useful only while tyranny is physical.

Look up the Battle of Athens. In a nutshell, some veterans returned home from fighting the war to find out that their local government had become oppressive - levying insane fees on speeding tickets, committing false arrests, taking bribes, etc.

On top of all that, the local Sheriff had rigged the ballot box to ensure that they stayed in power, denied some the right to vote, and overthrew poll-watchers through force.

The returned veterans recognized all of the above as tyranny, had put forth honest people for the election, and insisted that the election was done fairly be surrounding the Sheriff's office where the ballots where and mounting an armed resistance to ensure that tyranny wasn't done.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#198

Post by invalidOrTaken »

pekk wrote: post #63
mtgx wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So is the 4th amendment, and look how much that one is abused. In the end the Constitution really is "just a piece of paper", if not the government , not the judges , not the media , and ultimately not even the people respect it, live by it, and try to protect it as soon as it's endangered by people trying to accumulate too much power. Where are all the street protests?! I also fail to understand people who so viciou…

Threatening to take up arms is a way to pressure for political concessions as an end-run around representative democracy, when you aren't getting what you want (for example, when the populace elects the 'wrong' President).

You have the order wrong. Voting is an end run around war. An election is a civilized war, meant to get the same outcome as war without bloodshed.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#199

Post by jpdoctor »

justin66 wrote: post #193
jpdoctor wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Thomas Jefferson: ""When governments fear the people, there is liberty. Looks like false attribution according to wikiquote. (Why do people feel the need to use proof by authority anyway? Either a thing is right, or it is insightful, but attributing it to dead 18th century rebels does not bolster the case.) ________________________________ When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the…

> Why do people feel the need to use proof by authority anyway? Either a thing is right, or it is insightful, but attributing it to dead 18th rebels does not bolster the case. There's at least one completely made up Orwell quote that gets kicked around quite a bit by conservatives. ("rough men") That one is weird: you'd think those people would be happy to NOT quote Orwell if they knew anything about his politics. I…

> I assume it's less about argument from authority and more about just a lack of eloquence or confidence on the part of the person relying on quotations to make their point.

That's probably right. Hell, it's part of the reason that Hallmark greeting cards will always have a viable business model.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#200

Post by davidcuddeback »

bmelton wrote: post #175
philwelch wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's somewhat fortunate that the actual military is, if anything, the least likely threat. Almost all of the veterans I've known would take the people's side. So if it came down to it, I could see large amounts of the military refusing orders or defecting. The main risk is probably paramilitaries like the ATF or your local SWAT team. One of the neat ways the Second Amendment is self-enforcing is that, if you sent tho…

I was going to say almost exactly that, only instead of the ATF (who have very little in the way of tactical response capabilities), the DHS is the biggest threat on the whole. Firstly, they are not bound by Posse Comitatus, but even moreso than that, they've been gearing up for awhile to have extremely tactical response capacity, including live-fire drills in and over major cities, purchase of armored urban vehicles…

Can you cite a source for this information?
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