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Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

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Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#181

Post by jvictor118 »

zmb_ wrote: post #56
josephagoss wrote: post #2

Americans might not realise this but we see the USA in the same light as China and Russia when it comes to freedoms. We might be wrong, but thats the perception myself and many other people from outside the USA see the current state of the situation. To think anyone would feel safe in the USA is ridiculous, the USA is one of the last places anyone should seek refuge in modern times. What scares me most is the United…

As a European I wouldn't say I see the USA in the same light as China and Russia, but I definitely feel uncomfortable when I have to travel to the US for work. Given the US's recent track record with human rights and the ongoing mass surveillance, I just can't be sure some innocent comment on some website I've made at some point won't flag me and cause me to be indefinitely detained. I know it's probably not likely,…

Hey, then why don't you stay the hell out of our country. Thanks, love and kisses, Jason

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#182

Post by pfortuny »

mtgx wrote: post #44
pfortuny wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Aid" as in intelligence. Any piece of it you give to them can be considered treason. To make public is to yield to the enemy...

No it's not. Laws function by intention, too. He didn't make it public to aid the "enemy" (who is the enemy anyway? the world?). He did it to protect America. I think he also swore an oath to protect America against enemies both domestic and abroad. And he also swore to defend the Constitution - not the president.

When the enemy is 'terrorism', anything you make public is giving information to the enemy.

That is why the expression is so important and why Obama (and Bush in his time) keeps saying that the US is 'at war'. Because that allows them to subvert the law.

Honestly: I am not defending the Administration, on the contrary. I am just explaining why they are going to try to persecute him for treason if (when) they find him.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#183

Post by talmand »

philwelch wrote: post #157
randomsearch wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. But, how does owning a gun provide protection against the US military?

It's somewhat fortunate that the actual military is, if anything, the least likely threat. Almost all of the veterans I've known would take the people's side. So if it came down to it, I could see large amounts of the military refusing orders or defecting. The main risk is probably paramilitaries like the ATF or your local SWAT team. One of the neat ways the Second Amendment is self-enforcing is that, if you sent tho…

I've always thought the 2nd amendment wasn't necessarily totally aimed at the federal level of government, but at the state and local levels as well. One could say that it is almost aimed entirely at the state and local levels.

When the Constitution was written, the US didn't normally have a permanent standing army. It allowed for a navy, but an army was only intended for times of war and monies for it to be used for two years at a time. Of course, that changed over time.

The permanent military of several branches is a modern idea.

I agree with you, despite history, I would imagine there would be a serious morale problem if the military were ordered to open war against civilians. The Civil War comes to mind, many in the military left the North to fight for the South to defend their home states.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#184

Post by otsuichi »

rayiner wrote: post #102
anon1385 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The 4th amendment is strong as it has ever been […] Are police knocking down your door without a warrant? Yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky_v._King Justice Ginsburg , dissenting. The Court today arms the police with a way routinely to dishonor the Fourth Amendment ’s warrant requirement in drug cases. In lieu of presenting their evidence to a neutral magistrate, police officers may now knock, listen, then…

You're haggling over the definition of "reasonable", probably based on your views of the drug laws. Do you think that in 1800, the framers would have considered it an unreasonable search to enter a home they could hear being burglarized? No. That's why the 4th uses the wiggle word "unreasonable." I'd bet the reason you think Kentucky is different is that you think drugs are a non crime. I do too, but lots of people d…

An interpretation of the word "reasonable" is literally all discussions of the 4th Amendment have ever come down to, you can't pretend like someone with a narrower scope or "reasonableness" is just haggling over semantics and nitpicking tiny details.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#185

Post by thetwiceler »

I think this is really hyperbolic. The fact is that Snowden violated the conditions of his Top Secret security clearance, which is a crime that is subject to criminal prosecution.

Now, I'd argue the leak that Snowden made was much more acceptable than, if he had revealed the identities of CIA spies to foreign countries and caused them to be killed.

Nevertheless, we are a nation guided by rule of law, and it would be unreasonable to expect that Snowden wouldn't be prosecuted. Just because he did something which many people consider was a good thing, does not mean that he didn't do something illegal.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#186

Post by pfortuny »

venomsnake wrote: post #42
pfortuny wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Aid" as in intelligence. Any piece of it you give to them can be considered treason. To make public is to yield to the enemy...

Tell which enemy was aided. And also tell where this entity have been defined as an enemy?

(See above, cannot edit). All hinges around the 'war on terror'.

I am not defending the Administration (I may have made myself unclear), I am explaining why they are going for him """"lawfully"""" in their words.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#187

Post by robg »

_airh wrote: post #8

It is strange that the same country which cherishes its 'right to bear arms' on the grounds that it gives them a level of protection that the government is unable to provide is 'happy' to build the infrastructure which allows the same government to peek into their lives. On the one hand, we don't trust the government with the basics (physical security). On the other, we trust them with information we don't want our p…

Imagine if with the simple act of buying a firearm, you agreed to increased government monitoring of your online activities.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#188

Post by bmelton »

astrodust wrote: post #172
freehunter wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it did lead to an insanely long battle that continued well after the official war was over in not one but two countries. The governments had given up fighting, but the civilians with guns kept US forces under constant attack for ten years.

Guns are an important tool, but it's Improvised Explosive Devices that are causing the majority of the casualties, over 63% of them in Iraq and 66% in Afghanistan. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improvised_explosive_device ) A lot of the guns in circulation in Iraq were liberated from the army and police, or acquired through corrupt channels, originally provided by the coalition forces themselves. You credit a well a…

Doesn't that just illustrate that their odds would have been better had they started with arms instead of acquiring them as they went though?

This is somewhat similar to another argument I've had - there were some armed Jews in Germany who were able to leverage that firepower to hold off the SS and, eventually, escape. It certainly didn't stop the Nazis from committing the Holocaust, and communication / coordination are key to mounting a successful offense that the Jews didn't necessarily have time to mount, but while there were lots of Jews that died (some of them which might have even been armed), there were some that escaped (some of which were not armed); regardless, guns were demonstrably beneficial to those who fended off the SS.

As pertaining to the US Military, they have proven over and over that guerrilla warfare is not their strong suit, and especially so on foreign soil. Vietnam, Middle East, etc., have all shown that to be true. Also, as was mentioned earlier, many, if not most of the existing armed forces would have a very hard time mounting all out martial law against its citizenry. That isn't meant to imply that the situation couldn't be framed as such that it appeared to be necessary, but that also doesn't hold for long.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#189

Post by mpyne »

euroclydon wrote: post #170
mpyne wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, no to "decades without trial". And, for that matter, to "solitary confinement" as a routine, since we simply don't have that number of empty jail (not prison) cells anyways. It's funny how you mention having a jail cell with no one to bother you as worse than a labor camp though. I think those who have survived gulags or Nazi labor camps might disagree with you on that.

There's a lot of evidence to suggest that solitary confinement is a form of torture. See this highly discussed recent thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5796790

I didn't say people don't find solitary confinement to be a form of torture.

I did say it's still better than labor camps, especially for the types of "solitary confinement" usually being discussed, which are "cells or prison wings without other prisoners" and not "dark holes with only a slot on the door".

Should I ever go to prison I would greatly prefer the "prison wing without other prisoners", though I understand that's only a personal preference.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#190

Post by rayiner »

otsuichi wrote: post #184
rayiner wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're haggling over the definition of "reasonable", probably based on your views of the drug laws. Do you think that in 1800, the framers would have considered it an unreasonable search to enter a home they could hear being burglarized? No. That's why the 4th uses the wiggle word "unreasonable." I'd bet the reason you think Kentucky is different is that you think drugs are a non crime. I do too, but lots of people d…

An interpretation of the word "reasonable" is literally all discussions of the 4th Amendment have ever come down to, you can't pretend like someone with a narrower scope or "reasonableness" is just haggling over semantics and nitpicking tiny details.

My point is that he's arguing about precisely where the line should be drawn, not offering an example of the police engaging in clearly unreasonable conduct. You can't claim that the 4th amendment has fallen by the wayside just because you disagree about precisely where the courts have drawn the lines in edge cases. You need some stronger evidence than that.
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