Google Takeout means something else in light of PRISM • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Takeout means something else in light of PRISM

#31

Post by aiiane » Sat, Jun 08, 2013, 2:42 PM UTC

smtddr wrote: post #28

realo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That, exactly. Google, Apple, Facebook and friends go to great lengths to evade taxes. When it comes to tax matters, those companies have no hesitation to use all the tricks available to a trans-national company. And they pay very smart people to invent schemes that ensure a maximum amount of money is kept out of the US IRS hands. If Google, Facebook and friends were truly serious about protecting their users' privac…

It's one thing to have a bankaccount in the Netherlands, that's easy. A whole data-center? A data-center with all the infrastructure to support it and employees and it still needs to be fast enough that we can't see a slowdown from moving it out of USA? That's a different undertaking.

Google actually has many data centers outside the US (in addition to those it has inside the US).

Re: Google Takeout means something else in light of PRISM

#32

Post by onecommentonly » Sat, Jun 08, 2013, 2:44 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #6

Let's all do a blogpost on PRISM and see how many eyeballs we can get. Google takeout most likely has nothing whatsoever to do with PRISM or any other NSA programme, why go through a clunky one-user-at-a-time batch process when you can be comfortably sitting right where the action is, where updates are incremental and where information is available when it happens instead of when you ask for it. Push over pull any da…

If Google says that Takeout has all your information stored on Google, and if NSA wants everything for Person X, why isn't this ideal?

Re: Google Takeout means something else in light of PRISM

#33

Post by jacquesm » Sat, Jun 08, 2013, 2:53 PM UTC

onecommentonly wrote: post #32

jacquesm wrote: post #6

Let's all do a blogpost on PRISM and see how many eyeballs we can get. Google takeout most likely has nothing whatsoever to do with PRISM or any other NSA programme, why go through a clunky one-user-at-a-time batch process when you can be comfortably sitting right where the action is, where updates are incremental and where information is available when it happens instead of when you ask for it. Push over pull any da…

If Google says that Takeout has all your information stored on Google, and if NSA wants everything for Person X, why isn't this ideal?

Prism docs leaked put a huge accent on the fact that it is real-time.

On top of that google take-out is just google but a lot of other companies are listed as well. So, all things taken into account the two most likely have nothing to do with each other.

Rachelbythebay does not let any chance go by to diss her former employer and that's fine by me as long as it is based in fact, not in speculation. If she knows for a fact that this is the case that would change things considerably but from where I'm sitting this looks like speculation to me.

Re: Google Takeout means something else in light of PRISM

#34

Post by nahreally » Sat, Jun 08, 2013, 3:07 PM UTC

danso wrote: post #18

leoc wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But Google said it denies taking part in PRISM Did it really? It seems that PRISM is the software support etc. to semi-automate the FISA procedure at the Internet companies. Google claimed never to have heard the term 'PRISM' but that could easily be true-but-insignificant. (It's possible that the "PRISM" name is also being used by the NSA to cover old-fashioned wiretapping of emails etc., but that wouldn't involve…

Well, yes, really, insomuch as can be expressed in typical human language: > > First, we have not joined any program that would give the U.S. government—or any other government—direct access to our servers. Indeed, the U.S. government does not have direct access or a “back door” to the information stored in our data centers. We had not heard of a program called PRISM until yesterday. That's a broad flat out denial. A…

They could be regularly piping filtered information to serve the US's Government's interests, as part of project they know by another name but happens to have the code name "PRISM".

There; no "back door", no "direct access", no "PRISM", not "broad", as said elsewhere in the release.

Re: Google Takeout means something else in light of PRISM

#35

Post by chmars » Sat, Jun 08, 2013, 3:12 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #6

Let's all do a blogpost on PRISM and see how many eyeballs we can get. Google takeout most likely has nothing whatsoever to do with PRISM or any other NSA programme, why go through a clunky one-user-at-a-time batch process when you can be comfortably sitting right where the action is, where updates are incremental and where information is available when it happens instead of when you ask for it. Push over pull any da…

User data export features as they have been common recently – Facebook und Twitter for example offer similar features as Google Takeout – could without any doubt be used to export data for all kind of other 'users'.

NSA might tap every single bit of communication worldwide but getting structured data for users of specific interest directly from Google etc. is still much easier.

Re: Google Takeout means something else in light of PRISM

#36

Post by chmars » Sat, Jun 08, 2013, 3:15 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #33

onecommentonly wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Google says that Takeout has all your information stored on Google, and if NSA wants everything for Person X, why isn't this ideal?

Prism docs leaked put a huge accent on the fact that it is real-time. On top of that google take-out is just google but a lot of other companies are listed as well. So, all things taken into account the two most likely have nothing to do with each other. Rachelbythebay does not let any chance go by to diss her former employer and that's fine by me as long as it is based in fact, not in speculation. If she knows for a…

Google is not alone with this kind of user data export feature.

And just because systems like PRISM are in use, doesn't render data export for specific users useless:

PRISM might for example identify some users of specific interest. As a result, NSA might access all Google data in relation to this user in structured form. Legal interception ports in hardware and software have been known for years, they are mandatory in many countries. And while live surveillance can be important too, most results are gathered from structured user data and meta data. And in any case, why should the same work be done twice? Why should NSA do work that has already been done by Google etc.?

Re: Google Takeout means something else in light of PRISM

#37

Post by brown9-2 » Sat, Jun 08, 2013, 3:47 PM UTC

sentenza wrote: post #14

I am kind of surprised how many people on HN try to downplay the PRISM thing. The recent revelations and controversy directly affect the business prospects of any US firm that stores data. A couple of months ago I was on an education business fair in Germany and the first thing I heared at the booth of many data-handling businesses was: "We don't store anything in the United States. All our servers are in Europe/Germ…

If you stored data in the USA, you were already subject to all these things - search warrants from the FBI, FISA requests for a user's data, etc. The law has not changed.

If your servers are in Germany, then they are the subject of German law - and all of their similar, respective search and data laws.

If you weren't aware of this before, you either weren't large enough for anyone to ask for your data, you were lucky enough to never have to deal with this request (or your software isn't really used for communication or data storage), or you were simply ignorant of the legal situation

Re: Google Takeout means something else in light of PRISM

#38

Post by brown9-2 » Sat, Jun 08, 2013, 3:49 PM UTC

Even in the absence of this specific Takeout tool, Google would need a way to comply with legal requests for a user's data across all of their various systems.

What is more likely than not is that the majority of employees at Google have no idea how the surveillance system that Google would need to have worked and were ignorant that it existed.

Re: Google Takeout means something else in light of PRISM

#39

Post by btilly » Sat, Jun 08, 2013, 3:57 PM UTC

brown9-2 wrote: post #37

sentenza wrote: post #14

I am kind of surprised how many people on HN try to downplay the PRISM thing. The recent revelations and controversy directly affect the business prospects of any US firm that stores data. A couple of months ago I was on an education business fair in Germany and the first thing I heared at the booth of many data-handling businesses was: "We don't store anything in the United States. All our servers are in Europe/Germ…

If you stored data in the USA, you were already subject to all these things - search warrants from the FBI, FISA requests for a user's data, etc. The law has not changed. If your servers are in Germany, then they are the subject of German law - and all of their similar, respective search and data laws. If you weren't aware of this before, you either weren't large enough for anyone to ask for your data, you were lucky…

Obviously. But the USA and Germany are light years apart on questions of user privacy.

Re: Google Takeout means something else in light of PRISM

#40

Post by btilly » Sat, Jun 08, 2013, 4:04 PM UTC

sentenza wrote: post #14

I am kind of surprised how many people on HN try to downplay the PRISM thing. The recent revelations and controversy directly affect the business prospects of any US firm that stores data. A couple of months ago I was on an education business fair in Germany and the first thing I heared at the booth of many data-handling businesses was: "We don't store anything in the United States. All our servers are in Europe/Germ…

...in Germany and the first thing I heared at the booth of many data-handling businesses was: "We don't store anything in the United States. All our servers are in Europe/Germany."

There is a very simple reason why that is a marketing point, and any of those vendors would have been happy to expand on it, and probably do on their websites. That reason is that compliance with German law requires certification that all steps you take with data comply with German law, which is much easier to do with a vendor which exists in a jurisdiction that has similar data privacy laws, and is easiest if that vendor is German.

For a random example, see http://www.perspecsys.com/how-we-help/cloud-data-privacy/ger....

Now before you cheer Germany for this stance, stop and think. Normally HN is very supportive of anything that reduces red tape barriers to small startups trying to innovate. The kind of regulations that we're talking about both protect users, and make life a lot harder for startups.