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Google Takeout means something else in light of PRISM

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Re: Google Takeout means something else in light of PRISM

#11

Post by mtgx »

alan_cx wrote: post #7
mtgx wrote: post #3

When this came out, I remembered about that whole "you can never really delete your Facebook account, or the data from Facebook's server" situation. The whole NSA thing could also be one of the reasons why you can not. Oh, and you can't delete your Skype account either. Not even in the UI.

I wonder if deactivating one's FB account triggers a copy to be sent to the NSA? The "Logic" being a panicked user trying to cover tracks.

I wouldn't be shocked if that happened. There was some other leak a while ago saying that FBI thinks you're "suspicious" if you don't have a Facebook account. That's the world we live in now.

Re: Google Takeout means something else in light of PRISM

#12

Post by wavefunction »

Udo wrote: post #2

Exporting every account on a daily basis can't possible work for Google or the government. To be scalable and useful, and to meet the "no direct access to our servers" mantra, they would instead need for Google to replicate all database updates straight onto the NSA servers. That's no small feat, and it certainly requires explicit engineering effort, but it's not a hugely complex undertaking either. Maybe the infrast…

Or they just put something upstream of the "server."

It's actually trivial if you really think about it.

Re: Google Takeout means something else in light of PRISM

#13

Post by mtgx »

drivebyacct2 wrote: post #10
mtgx wrote: post #3

When this came out, I remembered about that whole "you can never really delete your Facebook account, or the data from Facebook's server" situation. The whole NSA thing could also be one of the reasons why you can not. Oh, and you can't delete your Skype account either. Not even in the UI.

Why on earth do you call out Skype? That's true of tons of services.

Skype was another one of the services mentioned. Microsoft was also the first company to start giving data this way to NSA, according to the leak, since 2007, and they signed up Skype to it almost immediately after they bought it.

Re: Google Takeout means something else in light of PRISM

#14

Post by sentenza »

I am kind of surprised how many people on HN try to downplay the PRISM thing. The recent revelations and controversy directly affect the business prospects of any US firm that stores data.

A couple of months ago I was on an education business fair in Germany and the first thing I heared at the booth of many data-handling businesses was: "We don't store anything in the United States. All our servers are in Europe/Germany."

I now wonder if next year, some will advertise that they don't even have a US subsidiary and are thus not under US jurisdiction.

Re: Google Takeout means something else in light of PRISM

#15

Post by leoc »

Udo wrote: post #5
leoc wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not aware of a good reason to think that Google sends all user data for everyone (or even all non-US-citizens) pre-emptively (or at all) to the NSA. The Takeout system is doubtless used to comply with FISA requests targeted at specific individuals, but it's not at all news that Google receives and accedes to such requests fairly routinely. The three questions which remain open are 1) just how many individuals are…

PRISM means that internet companies like Google will be free from future FISA and NSL headaches, and so they can even truthfully say that they haven't received any requests.

Not unless the NYT report is completely wrong, and the Internet companies are lying very blatantly. By all accounts PRISM is a conduit for FISA requests and responses, each of which is still approved by Internet-company lawyers. If they were servicing extremely-broad FISAs like Verizon's "send us all your phone metadata" then the distinction would be academic, but both Google and the NYT seem clear that Google hasn't accepted anything on close to that scale.

Re: Google Takeout means something else in light of PRISM

#17

Post by leoc »

danso wrote: post #8
Udo wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PRISM means that internet companies like Google will be free from future FISA and NSL headaches, and so they can even truthfully say that they haven't received any requests.

But Google said it denies taking part in PRISM...that denial could be a lie, but nothing so far has substantiated that. The NYT article that so incensed Michael Arrington, for example, exclusively refers to the FISA procedure, which Google has more or less already admitted that they comply with (lawyered requests for specific individual/groups data). The only part of the NYT article that sounds like the alarming scen…

> But Google said it denies taking part in PRISM

Did it really? It seems that PRISM is the software support etc. to semi-automate the FISA procedure at the Internet companies. Google claimed never to have heard the term 'PRISM' but that could easily be true-but-insignificant.

(It's possible that the "PRISM" name is also being used by the NSA to cover old-fashioned wiretapping of emails etc., but that wouldn't involve the Internet companies as opposed to ISPs.)

Re: Google Takeout means something else in light of PRISM

#18

Post by danso »

leoc wrote: post #17
danso wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Google said it denies taking part in PRISM...that denial could be a lie, but nothing so far has substantiated that. The NYT article that so incensed Michael Arrington, for example, exclusively refers to the FISA procedure, which Google has more or less already admitted that they comply with (lawyered requests for specific individual/groups data). The only part of the NYT article that sounds like the alarming scen…

> But Google said it denies taking part in PRISM Did it really? It seems that PRISM is the software support etc. to semi-automate the FISA procedure at the Internet companies. Google claimed never to have heard the term 'PRISM' but that could easily be true-but-insignificant. (It's possible that the "PRISM" name is also being used by the NSA to cover old-fashioned wiretapping of emails etc., but that wouldn't involve…

Well, yes, really, insomuch as can be expressed in typical human language:

> > First, we have not joined any program that would give the U.S. government—or any other government—direct access to our servers. Indeed, the U.S. government does not have direct access or a “back door” to the information stored in our data centers. We had not heard of a program called PRISM until yesterday.

That's a broad flat out denial. And in my opinion, it includes such options as reserving an omni-admin account for the government, and if such an arrangement exists, then Larry Page should be pilloried for issuing a lie. But until such an arrangement can be shown (and why couldn't it? If there's a NSA official who can leak about it successfully, why is it impossible to imagine that google has at least one such conscientious objector?), it seems a little unfair and counter productive to judge Google with inescapable circular logic.

Re: Google Takeout means something else in light of PRISM

#19

Post by realo »

sentenza wrote: post #14

I am kind of surprised how many people on HN try to downplay the PRISM thing. The recent revelations and controversy directly affect the business prospects of any US firm that stores data. A couple of months ago I was on an education business fair in Germany and the first thing I heared at the booth of many data-handling businesses was: "We don't store anything in the United States. All our servers are in Europe/Germ…

That, exactly.

Google, Apple, Facebook and friends go to great lengths to evade taxes. When it comes to tax matters, those companies have no hesitation to use all the tricks available to a trans-national company. And they pay very smart people to invent schemes that ensure a maximum amount of money is kept out of the US IRS hands.

If Google, Facebook and friends were truly serious about protecting their users' privacy, they would. They would pay very smart people to invent schemes that ensure a maximum amount of user data is kept out of the US NSA hands.

But they don't.

Re: Google Takeout means something else in light of PRISM

#20

Post by onecommentonly »

leoc wrote: post #15
Udo wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PRISM means that internet companies like Google will be free from future FISA and NSL headaches, and so they can even truthfully say that they haven't received any requests.

Not unless the NYT report is completely wrong, and the Internet companies are lying very blatantly. By all accounts PRISM is a conduit for FISA requests and responses, each of which is still approved by Internet-company lawyers. If they were servicing extremely-broad FISAs like Verizon's "send us all your phone metadata" then the distinction would be academic, but both Google and the NYT seem clear that Google hasn't…

"If they were servicing extremely-broad FISAs like Verizon's "send us all your phone metadata" then the distinction would be academic, but both Google and the NYT seem clear that Google hasn't accepted anything on close to that scale."

Maybe I read it wrong but Verizon was ordered by the court to do just that and to shut up about it. I doubt they were asked to accept, just the court ordered it and it is so because it became a 'legal request.' I have to wonder what Google, Microsoft and Facebook were asked to provide to NSA in large scale. If they can have all calls to see if anyone calls certain "terrorists," why not get a log of all Skype calls, FB likes, messages, Google searches etc to see if anyone is linked to "terrorists" or searching for related materials?

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