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President Obama’s Dragnet

nytimes.com

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Re: President Obama’s Dragnet

#131

Post by flyinRyan »

drawkbox wrote: post #57

The 'Patriot' Act was written 8 days after 9/11. It is time for it to go and be rewritten in saner times. The founders and framers of the Constitution and Bill of Rights knew the tyranny that can happen, but they have never seen what abuse of technology can be in terms of privacy. The people that say 'they have nothing to hide' don't realize that personal, business, ideas, private, market information can really be us…

Or how about scrap it and don't rewrite anything. Terrorism is no threat to the US, just stop making a big deal about it. The boston bombers killed 3 people. That's like 1 car crash.

Re: President Obama’s Dragnet

#132

Post by youngerdryas »

flyinRyan wrote: post #123
youngerdryas wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume you got your national ID card and register at the police station every time you move.

You think the US doesn't do this? They don't make you register when you move because they'll update their databases when you file your taxes.

I've never registered anywhere and I have moved a lot. In the states we have at least 20 million undocumented. In Germany you legally have to report someone that doesn't have an ID card.

Re: President Obama’s Dragnet

#133

Post by flyinRyan »

youngerdryas wrote: post #132
flyinRyan wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think the US doesn't do this? They don't make you register when you move because they'll update their databases when you file your taxes.

I've never registered anywhere and I have moved a lot. In the states we have at least 20 million undocumented. In Germany you legally have to report someone that doesn't have an ID card.

You don't have a social security card or drivers license? You don't file taxes? You don't have to register anywhere because they don't need that. They update all that kind of information when you file taxes.

Re: President Obama’s Dragnet

#134

Post by anigbrowl »

spinchange wrote: post #106
anigbrowl wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. It was obvious from the get-go that the purpose of the Patriot Act was to normalize what had previously been the domain of covert investigations of individuals. I don't personally feel terrified about it because I am too boring to become a likely object of suspicion; realistically, the chance of my being swept up in a government intelligence operation is about as likely as my being blown up by terrorists. And f…

Obama switched his stance to be in support of the Patriot Act/FISA extension _right in the middle of the 2008 primaries_! Chris Dodd, who was also running, led a huge filibuster effort AGAINST it. He ultimately failed and was one of the first to drop out. Moreover, for the record, Joe Biden is largely considered one of the architects of what became the Patriot Act, from his 1995 Omnibus Terrorism Bill (after the Okla…

Obama switched his stance to be in support of the Patriot Act/FISA extension _right in the middle of the 2008 primaries_!

This is true, so that rather invalidates the complaint that 'this isn't what we voted for.' Much like military incursions into Pakistan to target bin Laden, Obama himself clearly ran as a conservative Democrat, but a lot of people projected their own views onto him without paying attention to his actual platform.

He signs off on, and executes this

He has limited the scope somewhat through signing statements, but I feel bound to observe that the huge majorities with which Congress passed the original Patriot act and its various extensions make his signature a mere formality - even if he wiped his ass with it on national TV, it would still be the law and he would still be required to faithfully execute it.

Re: President Obama’s Dragnet

#135

Post by youngerdryas »

flyinRyan wrote: post #133
youngerdryas wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never registered anywhere and I have moved a lot. In the states we have at least 20 million undocumented. In Germany you legally have to report someone that doesn't have an ID card.

You don't have a social security card or drivers license? You don't file taxes? You don't have to register anywhere because they don't need that . They update all that kind of information when you file taxes.

>You don't have to register anywhere because they don't need that.

That is not a very good argument. Why do the Germans need you to register at the local police station?

Re: President Obama’s Dragnet

#136

Post by flyinRyan »

youngerdryas wrote: post #135
flyinRyan wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have a social security card or drivers license? You don't file taxes? You don't have to register anywhere because they don't need that . They update all that kind of information when you file taxes.

>You don't have to register anywhere because they don't need that. That is not a very good argument. Why do the Germans need you to register at the local police station?

Convenience. The reason you have to register is because you moving somewhere puts some level of strain on that community. This registration gives them a chance to get a handle on city migrations. They do the same thing in Switzerland. I don't remember who, but a very rich man was denied the ability to move to some low population city because they couldn't figure out what they would do with his tax money (warning, I've not verified this actually happened but I imagine it could).

Re: President Obama’s Dragnet

#137

Post by angersock »

yread wrote: post #97
angersock wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But remember, we have to disarm, because guns are evil you see. And because we can trust big brother, you see. The government knows what's best for us--after all, it knows everything about us. This is the sort of reason the wingnuts cry about guns and gubberment, and unfortunately, they're looking a bit less alarmist with each passing day.

Aha. So, now, since you haven't disarmed yet, your government is still afraid of you, right? And they wouldn't, say, break the constitution and unlawfully spy on all their citizens, now, would they? Oh wait, they do! So how did the guns prevent it?

Do you really think the situation would be better if the government knew--knew--they could march into your house at any time and black-bag you with total impunity? I'd rather the doormat factor not be absolute.

Re: President Obama’s Dragnet

#138

Post by Riesling »

yk wrote: post #101

I did grow up in West Germany during the 80ies, and at that time I was told that we were on the right side of the wall, because our government does not kill people, does not torture people and does not spy on its own population. Sometimes I wonder who won the cold war.

I think with the fall of the rivaling system, the need for the western world to differentiate itself just went away.

Re: President Obama’s Dragnet

#139

Post by sneak »

youngerdryas wrote: post #103
sneak wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I emigrated five years ago. It's tough, no fuckin' foolin'. The alternative is to go to bed every night knowing that a double-digit percentage of your value and productivity that day went to fund building bombs and buying and installing fiber splitters. I just couldn't do it any longer. FWIW, I have none of those circumstances you describe, and it was relatively easy, practically speaking— and I moved to Germany, one…

I assume you got your national ID card and register at the police station every time you move.

The national ID card is only for citizens; I am not a German citizen.

Registering with the police when you move is standard practice with all countries, USA included - you are required to give your SSN to every single DMV now to receive your state ID card/driver's license. They are available in every police cruiser. Are we going to split hairs over which agency runs the server the laptops in the police cars get to query?

Re: President Obama’s Dragnet

#140

Post by sneak »

flyinRyan wrote: post #127
sneak wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False. http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Forei... My line 14 has been zero for several years. I am a US-born American citizen.

That's only because Germany has some of the highest taxes in the world (can be upwards of 50%). Try moving to Lichtenstein (~10% income tax) and see how long you don't pay taxes.

No, I never work in Germany.
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