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President Obama’s Dragnet

nytimes.com

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Re: President Obama’s Dragnet

#41

Post by cookingrobot »

khuey wrote: post #32
sneak wrote: post #16

Keep paying US taxes and voting. That should work. (But seriously. It's time. Pack your belongings and leave. Vote with your tax dollars, please.)

Can't vote with your tax dollars unless you renounce your citizenship. And that feels like abdicating responsibility to me.

That's not true in practice. You always need to file taxes to the US no matter where you live, but you only pay to the US if you paid less overseas (you pay the difference, you don't double pay). Almost any county you'd want to live in (except tax havens) will have higher taxes than the US.

Re: President Obama’s Dragnet

#42

Post by jpdoctor »

tsotha wrote: post #17
jpdoctor wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When presented with new data, some people change course. I am hoping Obama falls into that class.

New data? Do you really think this is news to Obama?

> Do you really think this is news to Obama?

Do you really think the NYT headline was known to Obama? So yes: The reaction of the populace is news.

Again: Some people change course when presented with new data. While politicians and partisans rarely fall into that camp, I'm hopeful that Obama does.

Re: President Obama’s Dragnet

#43

Post by jlgreco »

sneak wrote: post #36
jlgreco wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, leaving doesn't work. The solution is sadly not that simple. But neither does voting. How could voting work when the public is not even suppose to be aware of this sort of thing? This sort of secrecy is incompatible with democracy. Without being able to make an informed decision the best you can do is vote for the candidate that assures you that they will have a transparent administration.... oh wait.

Yes, it works great. I know because I tried it.

Leaving works for individuals fortunate enough to be in a position where it is feasible. Unfortunately it is not a solution that can be applied across the board. Even assuming every concerned American had the means to leave, such a mass exodus of Americans would surely cause concern in any country they might wish to flee too.

Re: President Obama’s Dragnet

#44

Post by philwelch »

jellicle wrote: post #24
philwelch wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In politics, you fire those below you to save yourself. Even if they did right by you.

People would only be fired if this program is scandalous to the American public. All the evidence suggests that the American public doesn't mind privacy violations as long you say "child pornographer" and "terrorist" a lot when you talk about them.

Justifications for some, sacrificial firings for others. Just like Abu Ghraib.

Re: President Obama’s Dragnet

#45

Post by jlgreco »

jpdoctor wrote: post #42
tsotha wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

New data? Do you really think this is news to Obama?

> Do you really think this is news to Obama? Do you really think the NYT headline was known to Obama? So yes: The reaction of the populace is news. Again: Some people change course when presented with new data. While politicians and partisans rarely fall into that camp, I'm hopeful that Obama does.

He presumably changed course once already (when he received 'the news' that he could get away with the sort of shit he had many convinced he wouldn't do). With any luck he'll change course again with the new 'news' that the first news was wrong.

However I cannot say that I am optimistic.

Re: President Obama’s Dragnet

#46

Post by ericd »

khuey wrote: post #38
mtoddh wrote: post #25

From the article: "The defense of this practice offered by Senator Dianne Feinstein of California, who as chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee is supposed to be preventing this sort of overreaching, was absurd. She said today that the authorities need this information in case someone might become a terrorist in the future." That second sentence is the one that really caught my eye: She said today that the au…

Feinstein is one of the worst people in the Senate on civil liberties issues, and one of the foremost advocates of the national security state.

Ugh, I think I voted for her. :-( When is she up for reelection?

Re: President Obama’s Dragnet

#48

Post by khuey »

ericd wrote: post #46
khuey wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feinstein is one of the worst people in the Senate on civil liberties issues, and one of the foremost advocates of the national security state.

Ugh, I think I voted for her. :-( When is she up for reelection?

2018. But it's exceedingly unlikely that she has a realistic challenger in either the primary or the general elections.

Re: President Obama’s Dragnet

#49

Post by Shivetya »

emin_gun_sirer wrote: post #13

This article would have been stronger if it had contained a bit of introspection. Why did it require a UK paper to uncover this operation?

which of the major issues that the Obama Administration has the major US media broken recently? None. We have had nearly five years of a silent, complacent, if not compliant, major news media in the US. Sadly we have to resort to foreign news sources to get to the story.

Don't be surprised if Al-Jazeera breaks a story before one of ours does.

Re: President Obama’s Dragnet

#50

Post by khuey »

cookingrobot wrote: post #41
khuey wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't vote with your tax dollars unless you renounce your citizenship. And that feels like abdicating responsibility to me.

That's not true in practice. You always need to file taxes to the US no matter where you live, but you only pay to the US if you paid less overseas (you pay the difference, you don't double pay). Almost any county you'd want to live in (except tax havens) will have higher taxes than the US.

I doubt that. There are plenty of places in Asia or Latin America that you would probably have a lower tax bill in.
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