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Are coders worth it?

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Re: Are coders worth it?

#141

Post by markkanof »

bennyg wrote: post #32
rdouble wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's particular to the New York startup scene. There is a lot of money sloshing around and startups have a different hiring strategy than in Silicon Valley. It's quick to hire, quick to fire. I've had six figure offers without even going through a real interview. This leads to a lot of churn. One place I worked at ran through three almost entirely different engineering teams in 18 months. It will be interesting to re…

Not necessarily true. I think if you aren't in those tech places (beyond SV and NYC, there are other hotbeds too), you have to get known amongst a tech community and this is where social shines. I've been open sourcing software fairly frequently lately and was contacted by potential future bosses at three very well-known companies for software engineer roles, two in California and one smack-dab in Manhattan. I've als…

Given your educational background, I think it could be argued that you are better prepared to do this type of personal promotion than others who have a purely technical background. In most cases, raw technical talent isn't as important (thought technical folks usually think it's all that matters) as being able to do the job at hand and being able to convince others that you can do that job.

Good for you for realizing that "marketing" doesn't have to be a dirty word and hopefully others can learn from your example.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#142

Post by drunkpotato »

dhimes wrote: post #106
drunkpotato wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps you've been very lucky or found some especially naive people (right out of grad school, perhaps). Your rates immediately struck me as the kind of rate you would quote if you'd never, in fact, tried to hire somebody skilled. I allow the possibility you have been lucky and successful. In general you'll be paying upwards of $250/hr for a machine learning specialist (sometimes upwards of $500/hr if they have a mo…

You caught me: I've not hired a domain expert coder. But I've also not paid $120/hr for front-end coders. I over-paid for one guy who knew far less than I did- horrible coding practice, always thought he was farther along on the project than he really was (and wanted money), and, in fact, never got far enough to even understand the problem before I terminated the agreement. For $120/hr the person isn't fiddling- they…

Fair enough. I think my response was biased towards professionals who you can be sure will do the job quickly, not learning on your dime.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#143

Post by graycat »

One reaction: Routine Web site "plumbing" is not nearly all there is to the Web now or its potential in the future. If the OP wants work more advanced, significant, powerful, valuable, meaningful, etc., then he should try to think of a Web site that needs more than just routine plumbing.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#144

Post by bennyg »

markkanof wrote: post #141
bennyg wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily true. I think if you aren't in those tech places (beyond SV and NYC, there are other hotbeds too), you have to get known amongst a tech community and this is where social shines. I've been open sourcing software fairly frequently lately and was contacted by potential future bosses at three very well-known companies for software engineer roles, two in California and one smack-dab in Manhattan. I've als…

Given your educational background, I think it could be argued that you are better prepared to do this type of personal promotion than others who have a purely technical background. In most cases, raw technical talent isn't as important (thought technical folks usually think it's all that matters) as being able to do the job at hand and being able to convince others that you can do that job. Good for you for realizing…

True. People shouldn't shy away from personal promotion, just do it at appropriate times and in appropriate places. I hated advertising in school, but thought it was the only way I could make money with a graphic design degree. Turns out coding with a graphic design degree is a lot more rewarding (for me at least, I'm a builder by nature).

Re: Are coders worth it?

#146

Post by DannoHung »

NickPollard wrote: post #79
grey-area wrote: post #50

Wonderful writing, I loved the way it circled several times around the central issue - the value of work, and I particularly liked this conclusion - much validation and reward in our society is driven by how much people are willing to pay you for your chosen work, and it's very hard to separate your self-worth and confidence from that. It's hard to reconcile when your values don't meet those of the people around you,…

>> If you ask people in the street whether we need another Facebook, most would say no Don't take this as a disagreement with your whole comment (it isn't), but one trap that people fall into is equating what people say they want with what they actually want - at least as expressed by what they are willing to pay for , which is what shareholders and VCs care about. There was an article on HN a day or two ago about ho…

People are willing to pay for Heroin because it scratches a chemical itch in our brains. People don't say they want heroin because they intellectually know it ruins their lives and does nothing positive for them.

Such is the predatory nature of the capitalist.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#147

Post by joshdance »

Kind of a link bait title. The real question the author is digging at is value of work, what others are willing to pay, and how it affects your self esteem. But it worked because I read it.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#148

Post by axus »

Prices are set by supply and demand. Right now, coders are worth it, if they aren't the price will go down. If you want to take a longer term view and question the impact on the world, well, the galaxy will be gone in a trillion years.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#149

Post by bjhoops1 »

jacques_chester wrote: post #16

Virtue is not value. Value is not virtue. What you consider virtuous may produce no economic value. Or maybe it does. There's no rigid formula that connects them and the Just World Hypothesis is an illusion that traps fools and wisemen alike. Attempts to browbeat the world out of "is" and into "ought" have been universal failures and I retain every confidence that it will be ever thus. James Somers might find Hayek's…

Nonsense. Just because "is" will never fully attain to "ought" does not make vain the pursuit of a better, more just world.

> Attempts to browbeat the world out of "is" and into "ought" have been universal failures

There are so many examples (a single one of which disproves your "universal" claim) of idealists bring "is" more into alignment with "ought" that it would be almost impertinent to even begin enumerating them. Here's a small handful: Civil Rights movement, Women's Suffrage, and (from an economic perspective, since that what you seem to insist can never be touched by notions of "ought") the rise of Organized Labor, which made it possible for former wage slaves to earn a decent living wage.

If Hayek and Rand make you feel better about the fact that most of us over-earn relative to the "virtue" of our labors, fine. But IMHO it is best to be honest about the inequities and fortuitous circumstances which make our success possible.

Re: Are coders worth it?

#150

Post by darrellsilver »

omegote wrote: post #44
darrellsilver wrote: post #11

The irony of James' point – that engineers are in such high demand because of how cheap it is to start a startup – is that engineering salaries are actually being prevented from going up as a result. There's too little supply of qualified engineers, but startups can't afford to compete in salary with the big guys (basically Facebook, Google, Amazon and the financial sector). So we compete on cheaper things like nice…

I'm sorry, but a law school student cannot "become an engineer" in only eight months. That's an insult for people that either have studied an engineering degree (like I have) or have earned enough experience through the years to call themselves an engineer, experience that can't be earned in eight months. That's ridiculous.

Sorry – should be more clear: What I mean to say is that there isn't a fixed definition of becoming "an engineer." One's level of expertise and proficiency is defined by the hirer... It's not for me to judge, especially in the abstract, what it takes. If an employer thinks you're qualified, then you're qualified.

What's happening in the market right now is that people who may not have previously been considered qualified are now considered qualified. This is because there's so much demand.

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