Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Heap for iOS: the capture-everything approach to mobile analytics

blog.heapanalytics.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 68 posts

Re: Heap for iOS: the capture-everything approach to mobile analytics

#51

Post by sjtgraham »

irrationalidiom wrote: post #50
sjtgraham wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is an invasion of privacy at all. Heap hooks into single apps, it's not like it hooks into the OS to monitor user interaction with everything a user does in every app. I would sympathise with your reaction if this was the case. I think it's perfectly good enough for a vendor to declare what data they are collecting in their ToS e.g. "we collect information on how you use the app" and why, e.g. "to…

> I don't think this is an invasion of privacy at all. I vehemently disagree. Most companies will just hide the fact they are collecting (and often selling) user data within slimy legalese. Consumer protection includes niceties such as warranties, and protection against false advertising, and clear display of nutritional information and safety warnings. Privacy also deserves the same treatment so users can make an in…

- "Most companies" sell user data? "Slimy?" Incredible bias here. Wouldn't be so bad if you provided some evidence to support up your position.

- ToS of don't have to be "hefty", they can be written in plain English.

Try using facts instead of loaded, emotional language to support your argument next time.

Re: Heap for iOS: the capture-everything approach to mobile analytics

#52

Post by anonyfuss »

nemothekid wrote: post #42
anonyfuss wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't make it right. It's also astonishingly user-hostile; wasting the user's resources (bandwidth, battery life, cpu) on things they don't care about, without their permission. On top of that, doing anything economical with the analytics is very rare. It's very difficult to isolate meaningful variables, and you're almost always better off spending that money paying a designer to tackle issues and features that rea…

>doing anything economical with the analytics is very rare. That is a very bold claim and I'm interested if you have any sources to back it up. I'm hard pressed to believe that all of Facebook's design decisions hinge on whatever side of the bed Zuckerberg woke up on.

Belief that numbers can be interpreted usefully without a rigorous statistical approach is an enormous fallacy; I don't really see why the burden of proof lies on me.

Once you do apply rigor, you'll find that what the numbers can tell you provides very little help in guiding application design (unless you're optimizing for extremely simple measurable metrics, eg, Zynga).

Note that Zynga themselves copies a full game design, and then applies metrics to optimizing games for addiction and spendthrift response.

The numbers also can't tell you that what you really need to do is rework your application's entire interaction model to cleanly integrate feature X, Y, and Z -- which will also be far too expensive to even attempt to A/B test.

Most analytics users are simply playing an expensive game of "hot or cold".

Re: Heap for iOS: the capture-everything approach to mobile analytics

#53

Post by anonyfuss »

sjtgraham wrote: post #51
irrationalidiom wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think this is an invasion of privacy at all. I vehemently disagree. Most companies will just hide the fact they are collecting (and often selling) user data within slimy legalese. Consumer protection includes niceties such as warranties, and protection against false advertising, and clear display of nutritional information and safety warnings. Privacy also deserves the same treatment so users can make an in…

- "Most companies" sell user data? "Slimy?" Incredible bias here. Wouldn't be so bad if you provided some evidence to support up your position. - ToS of don't have to be "hefty", they can be written in plain English. Try using facts instead of loaded, emotional language to support your argument next time.

Companies I respect (including Apple) ask before gathering usage data; they don't hide it in the ToS that you and I both know nobody will read.

Do you object to asking users? If so, why? My guess is that you know the answer will usually be "no".

See also: opt-out vs. opt-in e-mail spam.

Re: Heap for iOS: the capture-everything approach to mobile analytics

#54

Post by socillion »

sjtgraham wrote: post #45
socillion wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disabling Javascript is an easy opt out for websites. This service is designed to produce user specific data. judging from what they record on websites (see docs, tldr everything) I'd be surprised if the iPhone version doesn't record GPS locations or what other apps you use. I'm also not sure how commonly websites record data in this detail that also maps to specific users, but if it's common on websites its definite…

Not using an app is an easy opt out for people.

That assumes the customers know about it, and I think you're giving companies too much credit to assume they will disclose it.

Re: Heap for iOS: the capture-everything approach to mobile analytics

#55

Post by sjtgraham »

anonyfuss wrote: post #48
sjtgraham wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm interested how this is user hostile? What is the purpose of collecting such data? I think it's to improve whatever is being measured, to make it more useful. I don't call that hostile.

Then ask the user first. I'm sure that if you can elucidate the value of tracking their every interaction, they'll be happy to agree. I'll say no, because don't want my battery wasted, my bandwidth consume, my IP logged, my address book mined, etc, just because a PM can't decode where to spend development and design dollars without fudging almost uselessly ambiguous numbers.

You are so incredibly misinformed. An address book cannot simply be mined. Those are extended permissions and access requires explicit opt in from the user at the OS level before the OS exposes any of that information.

Furthermore, do you have any data on how much battery, or bandwidth heap uses? No? Ok, please spare the FUD.

This is clearly about allowing developers to see how their users use their apps so they can improve the experience and make them more useful not about snooping on contacts/photos (which heap clearly does NOT facilitate). It goes without saying that the user has to be made aware that certain data is collected. I wonder, have you ever heard of a privacy policy?

Re: Heap for iOS: the capture-everything approach to mobile analytics

#56

Post by sjtgraham »

anonyfuss wrote: post #53
sjtgraham wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- "Most companies" sell user data? "Slimy?" Incredible bias here. Wouldn't be so bad if you provided some evidence to support up your position. - ToS of don't have to be "hefty", they can be written in plain English. Try using facts instead of loaded, emotional language to support your argument next time.

Companies I respect (including Apple) ask before gathering usage data; they don't hide it in the ToS that you and I both know nobody will read. Do you object to asking users? If so, why? My guess is that you know the answer will usually be "no". See also: opt-out vs. opt-in e-mail spam.

By all means users should be asked for permission. I can't speak for others but I personally don't often read ToS and that is my choice. In the event that there is something there that I object to and I miss it because I didn't read something I was supposed to I'm not going to cry about it.

What do you suppose the best way to ask for permission is? Please provide actual examples, perhaps from the companies you respect.

Re: Heap for iOS: the capture-everything approach to mobile analytics

#57

Post by anonyfuss »

sjtgraham wrote: post #56
anonyfuss wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies I respect (including Apple) ask before gathering usage data; they don't hide it in the ToS that you and I both know nobody will read. Do you object to asking users? If so, why? My guess is that you know the answer will usually be "no". See also: opt-out vs. opt-in e-mail spam.

By all means users should be asked for permission. I can't speak for others but I personally don't often read ToS and that is my choice. In the event that there is something there that I object to and I miss it because I didn't read something I was supposed to I'm not going to cry about it. What do you suppose the best way to ask for permission is? Please provide actual examples, perhaps from the companies you respec…

> What do you suppose the best way to ask for permission is? Please provide actual examples, perhaps from the companies you respect.

Literally ask for permission. That's what Apple does, as does almost every other traditional desktop software developer. On first launch, or when an error occurs, or when some other event that would involve sending personal/usage data to Apple occurs, they:

- Ask if you want to send the data

- Provide details on what kind of information will be sent (including, in some cases, providing access to the data itself)

- ... and usually give you the option to always send that kind of data

Re: Heap for iOS: the capture-everything approach to mobile analytics

#58

Post by sjtgraham »

anonyfuss wrote: post #57
sjtgraham wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By all means users should be asked for permission. I can't speak for others but I personally don't often read ToS and that is my choice. In the event that there is something there that I object to and I miss it because I didn't read something I was supposed to I'm not going to cry about it. What do you suppose the best way to ask for permission is? Please provide actual examples, perhaps from the companies you respec…

> What do you suppose the best way to ask for permission is? Please provide actual examples, perhaps from the companies you respect. Literally ask for permission. That's what Apple does, as does almost every other traditional desktop software developer. On first launch, or when an error occurs, or when some other event that would involve sending personal/usage data to Apple occurs, they: - Ask if you want to send the…

I agree this is also a good way to ask for permission. Does Apple do this in iOS? I don't recall ever seeing it outside of OS X. I imagine it's difficult to clearly express why the app wants to send this data within the constraints of a UIAlertView.

iOS asks for permission before exposing location information, or access to contacts/photos and I can see why, the information is highly private. I don't agree that "this user pressed this button at this time" quite fits into the same category of privacy though.

Re: Heap for iOS: the capture-everything approach to mobile analytics

#59

Post by anonyfuss »

sjtgraham wrote: post #58
anonyfuss wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do you suppose the best way to ask for permission is? Please provide actual examples, perhaps from the companies you respect. Literally ask for permission. That's what Apple does, as does almost every other traditional desktop software developer. On first launch, or when an error occurs, or when some other event that would involve sending personal/usage data to Apple occurs, they: - Ask if you want to send the…

I agree this is also a good way to ask for permission. Does Apple do this in iOS? I don't recall ever seeing it outside of OS X. I imagine it's difficult to clearly express why the app wants to send this data within the constraints of a UIAlertView. iOS asks for permission before exposing location information, or access to contacts/photos and I can see why, the information is highly private. I don't agree that "this…

> I agree this is also a good way to ask for permission. Does Apple do this in iOS?

Yep, just once.

> I don't agree that "this user pressed this button at this time" quite fits into the same category of privacy though.

You're going to consume the user's resources by sending that information, and most users don't really want you to (for obvious reasons), so it seems most ethical to ask first.

Re: Heap for iOS: the capture-everything approach to mobile analytics

#60

Post by anonyfuss »

sjtgraham wrote: post #55
anonyfuss wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then ask the user first. I'm sure that if you can elucidate the value of tracking their every interaction, they'll be happy to agree. I'll say no, because don't want my battery wasted, my bandwidth consume, my IP logged, my address book mined, etc, just because a PM can't decode where to spend development and design dollars without fudging almost uselessly ambiguous numbers.

You are so incredibly misinformed. An address book cannot simply be mined. Those are extended permissions and access requires explicit opt in from the user at the OS level before the OS exposes any of that information. Furthermore, do you have any data on how much battery, or bandwidth heap uses? No? Ok, please spare the FUD. This is clearly about allowing developers to see how their users use their apps so they can…

> You are so incredibly misinformed. An address book cannot simply be mined. Those are extended permissions and access requires explicit opt in from the user at the OS level before the OS exposes any of that information.

It used to be possible without requiring opt-in. What I've seen in some applications has been piggy-backing permissions -- that is, wait until you have a legitimate reason to request access to the user's address book, location, etc, and then also send that information to your analytics service.

> Furthermore, do you have any data on how much battery, or bandwidth heap uses? No? Ok, please spare the FUD.

Sure I do. They're uploading every 15 seconds, which keeps the WWAN and/or WiFi links up all the time. That can shave at least 25% off of battery runtime (exact numbers aren't easy, given that there are a lot of other factors at play. The basic battery device recommendation is simply: let unused hardware be powered down whenever you can).

There are very limited CPU and battery resources on a mobile device, and it's ridiculous to waste them without asking, specially if you're planning on pushing a massive torrent of mostly-useless data.

> It goes without saying that the user has to be made aware that certain data is collected. I wonder, have you ever heard of a privacy policy?

Ah, right. Put it in the huge document that no user ever reads (because it's huge and unreadable), and that excuses everything.

This is the same argument that sleazy people make in favor of opt-out mailing list spam.

Post reply on HN