Earlier quoted context omitted.
What argument of yours should I respond to? then one where you assert without any evidence that her work is bullshit? You think you can just dismiss an entire body of thought by throwing out ad hominems? Look, I know that you're smart enough to know that I'm a pretty smart guy, so comparing me to a "Christian fundamentalist" just makes you look ridiculous. Offer a serious argument to support your claims (as I did to…
> then one where you assert without any evidence that her work is bullshit? I didn't assert that, I implied that in the course of asserting something else. > You think you can just dismiss an entire body of thought by throwing out ad hominems? Yeah, actually I do, if it's a very small body and hasn't done much thinking. > comparing me to a "Christian fundamentalist" Again (and this is REALLY getting tedious), I didn'…
How to Do Philosophy
81–90 of 241 posts
Re: How to Do Philosophy
#82I haven't finished reading yet, but for what it's worth, I'm having trouble parsing this sentence: Few were sufficiently correct that people have forgotten who discovered what they discovered.
I think he meant something along the lines of "Few were sufficiently correct that they were remembered for their discovery."
In philosophy, most of the exam questions have someone's name in them. E.g. "explain x's concept of y."
Re: How to Do Philosophy
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
On what grounds would you call Rand's work "pseudophilosophy", rather than philosophy proper? Just because you don't like something does not mean it is automatically disqualified from the class of philosophies. I think that to qualify as a philosophy, something must be a system of thought that proposes a notion of metaphysics, epistemology, and a system of ethics. Rand's "output" obviously qualifies, whether you happ…
> On what grounds would you call Rand's work "pseudophilosophy", rather than philosophy proper? Well, for a start, there was the fact that she reviewed, and dismissed on "philosophical" grounds, a book of Immanuel Kant's after she read the back cover . Sure, that's an example, but by no means an atypical one. She dismissed nearly everything after Aristotle, usually on superficial grounds. Such wholesale dismissal of…
This is utterly irrelevant to the point in question. Rand's attitude toward other philosophers was pretty uninformed, I agree, but it is evidence of Rand herself being silly, superficial, etc., The point is that those are properties of Rand, not of her philosophy. To equate her (many) imperfections as an individual with inherent properties of her philosophy is essentially an ad hominem argument -- and it's even more debatable that merely dismissing the alternatives to one's theory automatically makes your own theory "pseudophilosophy".
As for my definition of philosophy, sure, it is also Rand's view, but I think it is fairly reasonable. Surely a philosophy must include some claims about 1. the nature of reality 2. our ability to understand that reality, if any 3. how we ought to act within that reality. If you think it's such a flawed definition, what definition would you prefer, and how does Rand's "output" not qualify?
As for ID/etc. being provably false, I agree with you, I mispoke. But I still don't see how you've proven, or even really supported, your argument that Rand is somehow "pseudophilosophy", and other systems of thought are "real" philosophy. That just sounds like superficial bigotry to me -- actually the same sort of thing you accuse Rand of, with respect to Kant.
Re: How to Do Philosophy
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
> On what grounds would you call Rand's work "pseudophilosophy", rather than philosophy proper? Well, for a start, there was the fact that she reviewed, and dismissed on "philosophical" grounds, a book of Immanuel Kant's after she read the back cover . Sure, that's an example, but by no means an atypical one. She dismissed nearly everything after Aristotle, usually on superficial grounds. Such wholesale dismissal of…
1. You claim that she dismissed a book by Kant after reading the back cover. Please provide a reference. 2. You don't like his definition of philsophy. What definition do you like? 3. You claim pseudophilosophy should not be taught in philosophy classes. Anyone and everyone agrees with that point. You still leave open the issue of whether Rand's work is in fact pseudophilosophy. Please support your claims.
See above. The books in which I could have located a reference are long gone; but it's in one of her short essays (if pushed, I'd suggest that it might be found in For the New Intellectual... but wouldn't want to be held to that).
> What definition do you like?
From wikipedia: "Different philosophers have had varied ideas about the nature of reason, and there is also disagreement about the subject matter of philosophy." If not even the people who do it professionally can agree on a definition, it would be presumptuous of me to try.
Nonetheless, you misread my objection. I am objecting to the assertion that Rand's work is without question philosophy, using the definition of philosophy by which Rand identified herself as one. It's tautological; it begs the question.
Likewise, my criticism of Rand is not that her conclusions are not reasonable conclusions (although I have my own opinions on that). It is that the methods by which she reached those conclusions are not those of a serious philosophical investigation. Rand's entire "philosophy" was carefully contrived to justify the conclusions she wanted justified, and that makes it worthless as philosophy - and inherently dishonest, to boot.
> You still leave open the issue of whether Rand's work is in fact pseudophilosophy.
I haven't even presented a definition of pseudophilosophy, let alone one you have agreed upon, so it's hard to see how you can assert that I haven't proved my case. So:
: I define "pseudophilosophy" as "justification masquerading as philosophy" - or, to elaborate, "a contrived rationalisation of a priori conclusions, constructed primarily to justify those conclusions rather than to examine their validity".
: I claim that the evidence of Rand's flight to the US from revolutionary Russia, and the emotions expressed in her early fiction (primarily We the Living and Anthem, but even back as far as The Husband I Bought) demonstrate the a priori nature of her strident individualism and anti-collectivism. I do not criticise this; indeed, I have a lot of sympathy with it.
: I note that her philosophical oeuvre developed over the next few decades, from its clumsy emotive (and none the worse for that) beginnings in Anthem, through its 30-year gestation in The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged, to its expression in direct form in works such as For The New Intellectual and Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal.
: I therefore conclude that in this case, she contrived her philosophical justification to fit her a priori conclusions about the rightness of capitalism and the abhorrence of altruism.
Note that I remain in sympathy with the feelings that drove her; indeed, I would go so far as to say that I share them. But to look upon her rationalisation of those feelings as anything other than a rationalisation, the self-justification of a woman who could not allow herself to simply be, is something I find absurd.
Re: How to Do Philosophy
#85Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, it's for the same reason that intelligent design isn't taught in biology classes, or that the timecube theory isn't taught in physics classes, or that homeopathy isn't taught in med school. Rand's output was pseudophilosophy.
But there's a lot of pseudoscience being taught today. Maybe Rand shouldn't be taught, but why isn't it? Because of the form of her output (novels)?
Re: How to Do Philosophy
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
1. You claim that she dismissed a book by Kant after reading the back cover. Please provide a reference. 2. You don't like his definition of philsophy. What definition do you like? 3. You claim pseudophilosophy should not be taught in philosophy classes. Anyone and everyone agrees with that point. You still leave open the issue of whether Rand's work is in fact pseudophilosophy. Please support your claims.
> Please provide a reference. See above. The books in which I could have located a reference are long gone; but it's in one of her short essays (if pushed, I'd suggest that it might be found in For the New Intellectual... but wouldn't want to be held to that). > What definition do you like? From wikipedia: "Different philosophers have had varied ideas about the nature of reason, and there is also disagreement about t…
"Worthless" is far overstating the case: in general it is hard to prove very much about the true motivations of philosophers, particularly long-dead ones. For example, it is quite likely that the exact lines of reasoning in Descartes' Meditations was contrived to reach the conclusions he wanted to reach beforehand, but to say that makes the whole thing "worthless" is pretty silly. Many philosophers can be criticized as developing rational arguments for positions they hold intuitively.
Re: How to Do Philosophy
#87Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Please provide a reference. See above. The books in which I could have located a reference are long gone; but it's in one of her short essays (if pushed, I'd suggest that it might be found in For the New Intellectual... but wouldn't want to be held to that). > What definition do you like? From wikipedia: "Different philosophers have had varied ideas about the nature of reason, and there is also disagreement about t…
> Rand's entire philosophy was carefully contrived to justify the conclusions she wanted justified, and that makes it worthless as philosophy "Worthless" is far overstating the case: in general it is hard to prove very much about the true motivations of philosophers, particularly long-dead ones. For example, it is quite likely that the exact lines of reasoning in Descartes' Meditations was contrived to reach the conc…
> Many philosophers can be criticized as developing rational arguments for positions they hold intuitively.
Indeed, but the key is doing so from a position of trying to prove your intuitively-held position wrong, and I'd suggest that this is what distinguishes philosophers. Some of them - for instance, Wittgenstein - even manage to do it.
Going back to the science analogy, new hypotheses are accepted not once supporting evidence is found - even UFOs have supporting evidence, after all! - but only for as long as attempts to produce confounding evidence fail.
Re: How to Do Philosophy
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
> then one where you assert without any evidence that her work is bullshit? I didn't assert that, I implied that in the course of asserting something else. > You think you can just dismiss an entire body of thought by throwing out ad hominems? Yeah, actually I do, if it's a very small body and hasn't done much thinking. > comparing me to a "Christian fundamentalist" Again (and this is REALLY getting tedious), I didn'…
Will you stop it, you two? Your dispute is now mostly about itself.
pg, please delete or disable my account forthwith. I am not prepared to stay in a place where that's acceptable - and by allowing the behaviour, you make it acceptable. I would do it myself, but news.yc doesn't even allow me to change my fucking password. (I hope you're not storing them as plaintext.)
Re: How to Do Philosophy
#89We are not cells and molecules. We are souls. Strange that an essay that talks about philosophy doesn't have even once the word soul.
Ancient Greek philosopher Aristotel seperates animals from humans as beings that have soul and the ability to think.
His work "Physics" tried to capture concepts people ignore even these days, and tried to examine in an amazing use of reason various metaphysical phenomena trying to find balance between whats real, fake and imaginary.
If you read the works of Aristotel and others, in original Greek you will be amazed by his astonishing ability to convey truth in a wonderful ingenious word of speech.
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Plato talked about many not-connected subjects in a very indirect way to put the reader in becoming part of his works. Ingenius!
A very important concept of Socrates and Plato is the world of ideas. A seperate existance/entity/world that we all have access to. Modern science doesn't accept that, as there is not proof for that. But doesn't the fact that a lot of people share similar ideas at different place and time may be a small clue of exactly that?
Re: How to Do Philosophy
#90It'd be useful to see some support for your claims about the history of philosophy. Specifically: 1. Aristotle's Metaphysics, and the like, had no effect on its readers. I'd also like a clearer definition of "did something." I.e. does changing the way one thinks about practically theoretical fields "do something?" 2. No one challenged the two until the 1600s. Kant, by himself, isn't a good source since his philosophi…
1. Creative, logical thinking is an inherent part of what we do and love.
2. We created and own the best communication and research network in history.
3. Programming brings our ideas into existence in very short order, and allows us to model pretty much every aspect of reality.
Unfortunately, we also tend to get stuck in our own little world of ideas, a important strength which is our major flaw.