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What is Happening in Istanbul?

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Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#401

Post by venus »

jackowayed wrote: post #343
chrischen wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you probably went through the US education system? US schools brainwash kids into thinking that democracy and freedom to criticize the government are inherently good concepts, but in reality they are only desirable because of the practical effects it may or may not produce. There are no universal morals, and because of that you can't say democracy is inherently "right." So I have to side with your parent and…

But the comment I replied to basically posited "wealth" as the one and only universal good by suggesting that if the government strives for something that doesn't eventually yield wealth, there's no point. An overused example: Fascism has at times lead to incredible economic growth, creating wealth that did measurable good in most citizen's lives (by ending terrible depressions). But there was more that came along wi…

I used the word wealth because I was replying to another post which used it when trying to set up a false dichotomy between political freedom on one side and "wealth" on the other, as if they're opposites and you can have one or the other, not both. I wasn't trying to say that the sole goal of government is to get everyone rich.

But I did say long term - long term the Nazi "wealth" turned to ash. For that matter the nordic social experiment cannot be said to have succeeded yet. Really, none of this has been around long enough to make any final conclusions about anything.

Anyway. Instead of "wealth" you might want to read "social wealth" - the ability of a society to provide good jobs, education, social mobility, health care, long term satisfaction, security of state and person, those kinds things.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#402

Post by crdoconnor »

damoncali wrote: post #249
jasonlingx wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The entire point of the post was that Singapore is a great place to live as long as you do not try to exercise a political freedom. This is not true. His exact words were "I find Singapore to be the scariest dystopia in the world today". > Singaporeans (or at least the ones who are left) happen to be willing to accept less freedoms in exchange for economic success This is bullshit. What a sweeping generalisation to…

What are these "less freedoms" exactly? You know, free elections, the right to arm yourself, the right to buy chewing gum . Singapore is pretty creepy under the surface and reeks of covert oppression, at least to my American eye. It seems to work for them, but I wouldn't want to live in a place like that, clean streets or not.

>You know, free elections, the right to arm yourself, the right to buy chewing gum.

It is easier to get chewing gum in Singapore than it is to buy kinder eggs in America.

Additionally, the reason for banning chewing gum was a whole lot more reasonable (it makes the streets dirty & jammed train doors).

>I wouldn't want to live in a place like that, clean streets or not.

And I wouldn't want to live in America either. I'm happily trading chewing gum and semi-automatic pistols for affordable healthcare, summer every day and clean streets.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#403

Post by hcarvalhoalves »

I just hope Turkey doesn't end like another country where the people die in the hand of the government while the international community watch with their hands folded because it's on their best interest to destroy another muslin country - like Syria.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#404

Post by hcarvalhoalves »

desas wrote: post #200
saurabhnanda wrote: post #180

Why don't people identify the policemen and make their social life (outside of their police duty) a living hell. Bully their kids in school, boycott their spouses, refuse to do any kind of business with them (no groceries, no milk, etc.) At some point people have to be held personally responsible for their wrong doings. They shouldn't be absolved of personal responsibility just because they're in the police force, wh…

Turkeys prime minister may be increasingly authoritarian but he was democratically elected. He is not a dictator.

Democracy does not guarantee automatic legitimacy - specially where there's no minimum number of votes.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#405

Post by westicle »

endianswap wrote: post #202
jasonlingx wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a load of rubbish. What does this have anything to do with Singapore?!

I hate to reply to a comment like this, but for anyone new to HN, these folks come out whenever Singapore is mentioned in a negative light. For a previous rendition: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2621371

In case you think "these people" have an (unstated?) agenda to push, perhaps I can share my point of view... You'll note that I'm not Singaporean nor have I ever posted anything relating to Singapore on HN.

I have visited Singapore several times. My anglo-saxon, western uncle lived and worked in Singapore as a teacher for a number of years. I even had brief involvement in a start-up business in Singapore.

I cannot identify in any way with the portrayal of Singapore as some dystopian nightmare. If anything I would describe it as a safe, pleasant, interesting and diverse city-state. In my experience, police are courteous, bureaucracy is minimal and people do a remarkably good job of living good lives in spite of the dense population in many areas. I would concede that in the time I've been there I've witnessed immigrant workers from neighbouring countries essentially imported to work in menial labour and the entertainment/sex trade. However looking at the conditions they're coming from, I'm sure to many it is the best opportunity to improve their lives they are likely to get.

And in the end, the human outcome for real people is the most important aspect of a society. For all the self-righteous feel-goodery about "free" political expression, nobody really cares about the important political messages you're posting on your blog. What's the value of your free voice when at the end of the day you can vote in the "conservative" guys who don't give a shit, or the "progressive" guys who don't give a shit? I'd rather have slightly better governance without the illusion of choice, thanks very much.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#406

Post by Myrmornis »

api wrote: post #158

"These people are my friends. They are my students, my relatives. They have no «hidden agenda» as the state likes to say. Their agenda is out there. It is very clear. The whole country is being sold to corporations by the government, for the construction of malls, luxury condominiums, freeways, dams and nuclear plants. The government is looking for (and creating when necessary) any excuse to attack Syria against its…

This discussion should be about Turkey. Instead it looks like a bunch of startup-oriented programmers talking about Singapore because they're only interested in a small list of countries that they associate with startup culture.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#409

Post by Tangaroa »

justin66 wrote: post #248
api wrote: post #158

"These people are my friends. They are my students, my relatives. They have no «hidden agenda» as the state likes to say. Their agenda is out there. It is very clear. The whole country is being sold to corporations by the government, for the construction of malls, luxury condominiums, freeways, dams and nuclear plants. The government is looking for (and creating when necessary) any excuse to attack Syria against its…

> It's the fusion of authoritarian quasi-fascist rule with capitalism Were the two ever separate?

Yes. Fascism and capitalism were separate in Italy, Germany, and Franco's Spain.

"The Fascist State lays claim to rule in the economic field no less than in others" - Benito Mussolini, The Doctrine of Fascism. http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Germany/Mus...

Fascism calls for state control and direction of the economy, which ultimately means Fascist Party control of the same because Fascism denies the legitimacy of any other party to ever govern the state. Capitalism calls for few to no state controls over economic activity so as to allow all businesses to operate with minimal interference.

Germany followed Italy's lead in state direction of the economy and notoriously seized the assets of Jews and sent them to "work" camps in the name of increasing the productivity of their labour. Franco banned international trade and watched his economy crash for a decade.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#410

Post by Myrmornis »

shriphani wrote: post #391
api wrote: post #158

"These people are my friends. They are my students, my relatives. They have no «hidden agenda» as the state likes to say. Their agenda is out there. It is very clear. The whole country is being sold to corporations by the government, for the construction of malls, luxury condominiums, freeways, dams and nuclear plants. The government is looking for (and creating when necessary) any excuse to attack Syria against its…

Oh please. Singapore's leadership exhibits far more compassion for the citizenry that the Turkey news bulletins show. I am certain that in the matter of handling crime Singapore needs no lessons from any western country no matter what ideals they (claim to) operate by. In fact they can take a page out of Singapore's book where people don't need to worry about their safety when walking home after 12:00 midnight (which…

Why on Earth wouldn't you walk home after midnight in those places? I mean sure you would avoid some particular areas, but you named entire cities! Why do you think it is unsafe for you and not for everyone else?
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