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You can't impress developers

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Re: You can't impress developers

#151
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have similar thoughts. I've been here for a few years and I haven't observed any specific decline. I'm a little confused by the perceived offense as well: it's not good to tell someone something sucks? I would much rather hear honest thoughts about my projects ("seems like a waste of time, poor implementation anyway, maybe try $x instead?") than be given a false sense of security through unwarranted praise. Of cour…

Having been in the industry for some time now, I've observed significant generational differences between how criticism is given and accepted. When I worked with developers raised in the 1920s, 1930s, and 1940s, they generally wouldn't hold back when it came to criticism. If something was done wrong, or if something was a stupid idea, they'd say so very bluntly and to-the-point. They'd also be more open to receiving…

Some of it is environment. I know a fair amount of developers that were raised in the 70's and 80's in rural areas and they tend to take criticism fairly well. A lot of criticism when they were growing up was dished out in harsh terms mainly because somethings they did were dangerous and parents / authority figures needed to get the point across now and be heard[1].

It also depends who is giving the criticism. Someone who has no place to be harsh shouldn't be harsh. There are plenty of ways of saying "this is beyond wrong" in a calm, fact-driven manner[2].

1) my Dad was fond of the phrase "amazed and appalled". He was amazed we thought of doing it, and appalled we actually did

2) mentors: ignorance is your problem, stupid is something else

Re: You can't impress developers

#152
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've noticed this as well and I've always felt it had to do with the fact that you cannot downvote comments. Comments systems that allow for only upvoting seem to skew towards surfacing loud comments versus reasonable comments. The silent reasonable majority (that is less inclined to comment or even vote) needs a way to help curate when things get unbalanced. Think about how you might not end up actually clicking upv…

But you can downvote comments, if you have sufficient karma. So is the problem that the people with the power don't exercise it, or that people don't upvote the reasonable comments in a sufficient ratio to push the bad comments down? Meta-HN is not my favourite topic but perhaps it's time we had a review to account for how the community has changed since the last one.

I think the karma threshold for down-votes makes it a very different dynamic than up-votes in two ways. First, it means more people get to up-vote than down-vote. More significantly, it makes it look very different to those who can down vote. While I view the up vote as saying 'this comment is good and deserves recognition', I see the down-vote as saying 'this comment is so unacceptable that it does not belong on this site'.

Re: You can't impress developers

#153
There is a huge amount of value in constructive criticism, and really very little value in praise. In order to reach your full potential you must be able to handle criticism of your work. If you simply praise a person you are really not doing them any favors, in fact you might be hurting their development by creating a false sense of superiority that causes them to stop pushing themselves as hard to succeed. However, you really are doing a person a favor when you take the time to read through their work and offer constructive criticism, because then you are helping them to achieve their full potential.

In fact, it's a sign of respect to give constructive criticism because the implied message is: I found your work interesting enough to spend time looking over it and thinking about; and I'm not going to treat you like a child who needs to be coddled, but rather like a peer who is capable of handling criticism.

Re: You can't impress developers

#154

There is a huge amount of value in constructive criticism, and really very little value in praise. In order to reach your full potential you must be able to handle criticism of your work. If you simply praise a person you are really not doing them any favors, in fact you might be hurting their development by creating a false sense of superiority that causes them to stop pushing themselves as hard to succeed. However,…

> really very little value in praise

Value in the $-sense, or in the emotional sense?

Why can't you give constructive criticism AND praise at the same time.

Re: You can't impress developers

#155

There is a huge amount of value in constructive criticism, and really very little value in praise. In order to reach your full potential you must be able to handle criticism of your work. If you simply praise a person you are really not doing them any favors, in fact you might be hurting their development by creating a false sense of superiority that causes them to stop pushing themselves as hard to succeed. However,…

> really very little value in praise Value in the $-sense, or in the emotional sense? Why can't you give constructive criticism AND praise at the same time.

I don't mean value in the financial sense, but rather in the sense of helping a person improve as a developer.

As for mixing praise and criticism, that is appropriate for certain situations; for example when dealing with a student with low self confidence. However there is a danger in praise which I outlined in my previous comment, it really doesn't accomplish much besides stroking a person's ego, and that can have unintended negative consequences for their long term development.

Re: You can't impress developers

#156

Hacker News is going through a predictable evolution. In the early days it's a wonderful community of supportive collaborators. These are the people who start unmoderated mail lists and discussion groups, at least the ones that grow to the next stage. It attracts people who want to be part of an unmoderated mail list or discussion group. It doesn't matter what the topic is, they always show up. They feel a sense of e…

Yet when there was a thread on here about your product, Fargo, last week you seemed to be quite fond of Hacker News, asking people on your blog to vote it up so you could get more publicity. If you don't like Hacker News why don't you stop reading it, posting to it and pointing to it in your blog multiple times a week, glowingly when its in your favor and harshly when its not. You seem to being continuing your long r…

[deleted]

Re: You can't impress developers

#157
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans are notoriously optimistic, and in particular, we forget about all the things we have to do in order to achieve the things we want to do. (I have been reading some research on this lately). I used to harbour the "build it in a weekend" suspicion about everything, and then I started building things. The world is a damn mess, is what it is.

Could you please point to the research? It sounds interesting.

I've been working on a tool for making PERT estimates easier and, consequently, done a bunch of reading about PERT, wherein lots of the work is of a statistical or mathematical nature. But I also ducked across to the psychological research to get a feel for the human factors. Psychologists consider estimation problems under the heading of "the planning fallacy". I intended to write a series of articles for SEO purposes but so far I only have two fairly light-weight ones done[0].

Most PERT method research is out of the Operations Research community. There's some interesting stuff there about how estimates can be wrong. For example, if you accept that there's a range of probabilities on every node in a PERT graph, then managing the "critical path" by itself is very risky. There's a whole bunch of what you might call subcritical paths lurking, and one step in risk management is to find the parts of your project where they might be lurking[1].

Another thing that pops up. In the classic PERT formula, the divisor is 6. Why 6? It turns out that nobody is quite sure, but it roughly assumes that events follow a double-triangular distribution[2]. This is a heroic assumption, to say the least, but how do you best account for it? In my prototype code I've made the distribution configurable with the idea that advanced customers could change it; or perhaps some regression across all customer data could provide a better fit.

But then comes a bit of a bombshell from the psychologists, who operate in a carefree world, innocent of project management problems. They've found that decomposing a task improves estimation performance. It's called the "unpacking effect".

In a series of experiments Kruger & Evans established that you can improve estimation performance on a main task simply by asking people to list the subtasks required to achieve it. How long will it take to get ready for a date? If you ask this question by itself, the answer will be wrong. If you first ask "What do you need to do to prepare for a date?" and then ask how long, the answer is still wrong, but it is less wrong. Read their paper, it's absolutely fascinating [3].

To me this raises the fascinating possibility that the improved performance of PERT estimates over expert judgement derives mostly or wholly from the enumeration of subtasks rather than the statistical stuff that comes along for the ride.

[0] http://confidest.com/ (I know it looks very ordinary, my CSS chops are very ordinary).

[1] Richard J. Schonberger, "Why Projects Are 'Always' Late: A Rationale Based on Manual Simulation of a PERT/CPM Network", Journal of the Operational Research Society

[2] T. M. Williams, "What Are PERT Estimates?", Journal of the Operational Research Society

[3] Justing Kruger and Matt Evens, "If you don't want to be late, enumerate: Unpacking reduces the planning fallacy", Journal of Experimental Social Psychology.

Re: You can't impress developers

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans are notoriously optimistic, and in particular, we forget about all the things we have to do in order to achieve the things we want to do. (I have been reading some research on this lately). I used to harbour the "build it in a weekend" suspicion about everything, and then I started building things. The world is a damn mess, is what it is.

Well put Jacques, I couldn't help but reblog this! :) http://johnmardlin.tumblr.com/post/51994252739/humans-are-no...

Ta. Feel free to link to my website (chester.id.au).

Re: You can't impress developers

#160

Hacker News is going through a predictable evolution. In the early days it's a wonderful community of supportive collaborators. These are the people who start unmoderated mail lists and discussion groups, at least the ones that grow to the next stage. It attracts people who want to be part of an unmoderated mail list or discussion group. It doesn't matter what the topic is, they always show up. They feel a sense of e…

You've been saying this for literally years now. Back in 2011 you were declaring that "idiots" dominated Hacker News.

How would you know you've only been here 165 days! ;-)
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