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You can't impress developers

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Re: You can't impress developers

#81
post #32

I'm impressed by the stuff I see here, all the time. I've only been using HN for a couple of months but I, too, have noticed a decline in the quality of comments. The comments used to be about how amazing the information in the link is, what's so amazing about it, how it can be used, how it can be improved concluded with brownie points for the OP. Now, all I read about is how dumb the post is. Author wrote too much/l…

I think the quality of the comments reflects the average quality of the posts. We can't talk about how amazing the information is if the submitted link is a 3 paragraph blog post. So unfortunately the average commenter becomes the type of person who comments on 3 paragraph blog posts. Now here's a cool startup idea. A ranking system that takes into account not only community upvotes, but an automated NLP assessment o…

> but an automated NLP assessment of the quality of writing.

What about non-native English speakers?

Re: You can't impress developers

#82

Developers, in general, on average, chronically underestimate the time it takes to properly execute an idea and how many iterations and discovery of the exact needs of customers that requires. I work at a company that sells a tool for model based testing and invariably, at every customer company, there are developers that think our tool isn't worth the money, because when we explain to them how it works and they thin…

Humans are notoriously optimistic, and in particular, we forget about all the things we have to do in order to achieve the things we want to do. (I have been reading some research on this lately).

I used to harbour the "build it in a weekend" suspicion about everything, and then I started building things. The world is a damn mess, is what it is.

Re: You can't impress developers

#84

Hacker News is going through a predictable evolution. In the early days it's a wonderful community of supportive collaborators. These are the people who start unmoderated mail lists and discussion groups, at least the ones that grow to the next stage. It attracts people who want to be part of an unmoderated mail list or discussion group. It doesn't matter what the topic is, they always show up. They feel a sense of e…

You've been saying this for literally years now. Back in 2011 you were declaring that "idiots" dominated Hacker News.

Re: You can't impress developers

#85
post #73

I've been active here for about 2 years now. I don't think there's been the dreadful decline people are talking about; I think it's mostly nostalgia talking. I know intellectually that I basically hated highschool and spent most of it alternatively depressed or bored out of my skull, yet somehow that period of my life has taken on a rosy tint. Sometimes OPs are wrong or misguided and somebody with more experience or…

I have similar thoughts. I've been here for a few years and I haven't observed any specific decline. I'm a little confused by the perceived offense as well: it's not good to tell someone something sucks? I would much rather hear honest thoughts about my projects ("seems like a waste of time, poor implementation anyway, maybe try $x instead?") than be given a false sense of security through unwarranted praise. Of cour…

Having been in the industry for some time now, I've observed significant generational differences between how criticism is given and accepted.

When I worked with developers raised in the 1920s, 1930s, and 1940s, they generally wouldn't hold back when it came to criticism. If something was done wrong, or if something was a stupid idea, they'd say so very bluntly and to-the-point. They'd also be more open to receiving such criticism, and would re-evaluate their own work or ideas without a second thought. They surely wouldn't let it hurt their feelings, or anything of that sort.

Developers raised in the 1950s, 1960s and the first part of the 1970s tend to be willing to give out some harsh criticism, but I've found they're often less willing to accept it from others. They won't necessarily re-consider their ideas or work when questioned.

The trend is more pronounced with developers raised in the late 1970s and 1980s. I've generally observed them to be far less critical of the work of others, but also even less willing to accept criticism directed at their work or ideas. Some even consider criticism to be unacceptable.

Now I've started working with some developers raised during the 1990s, and their attitude is generally one of criticism being completely unacceptable. They don't necessarily think that praise is necessary all of the time, but they can often take any sort of criticism very personally.

While it may just be tied to age, experience and maturity, I'm thinking it goes beyond such things. For example, I've seen several different professional developers raised in the 1990s actually cry in the workplace when faced with valid, and actually quite muted, criticism of their work. These people were adults, over 20 years old. I'd never seen anything like it with the thousands of other developers I've worked with over the years, even ones who were of a similar age at the time, but born earlier.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if that's what we're seeing here, too. Old developers, who have a more accepting attitude toward criticism, are more than willing to dish it out and receive it back. But the youngest generation has a very different attitude toward it, seeing criticism as extremely offensive, and even pseudo-criminal in nature. While many of them do just try to avoid giving and receiving criticism altogether, I do find it kind of funny and hypocritical when the more outspoken ones openly criticize those who are critical of others.

Re: You can't impress developers

#86
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have similar thoughts. I've been here for a few years and I haven't observed any specific decline. I'm a little confused by the perceived offense as well: it's not good to tell someone something sucks? I would much rather hear honest thoughts about my projects ("seems like a waste of time, poor implementation anyway, maybe try $x instead?") than be given a false sense of security through unwarranted praise. Of cour…

Having been in the industry for some time now, I've observed significant generational differences between how criticism is given and accepted. When I worked with developers raised in the 1920s, 1930s, and 1940s, they generally wouldn't hold back when it came to criticism. If something was done wrong, or if something was a stupid idea, they'd say so very bluntly and to-the-point. They'd also be more open to receiving…

How many of today's 90 year old developers have you worked with?

Sounds weird to be assessing developers raised in the 1920s.

Re: You can't impress developers

#87
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having been in the industry for some time now, I've observed significant generational differences between how criticism is given and accepted. When I worked with developers raised in the 1920s, 1930s, and 1940s, they generally wouldn't hold back when it came to criticism. If something was done wrong, or if something was a stupid idea, they'd say so very bluntly and to-the-point. They'd also be more open to receiving…

How many of today's 90 year old developers have you worked with? Sounds weird to be assessing developers raised in the 1920s.

"When I worked with developers raised in the 1920s, 1930s"

Does that give enough context?

Re: You can't impress developers

#88
post #8

You can't impress developers on HN . There's something about the social dynamics of large groups of developers online that causes relatively-uninteresting criticisms to dominate. But when somebody's actually trying something out, rather than just kibitzing? They're a lot friendlier. If you couldn't impress developers we'd never switch to new technologies. And yet here we are, with rack and sinatra and cucumber and no…

I'm not sure that the "new technologies" you listed are very good examples.

Rack, for instance, isn't really that much different from CGI, FastCGI, SCGI, NSAPI, ISAPI, Apache modules, and so forth. It's just one more way of invoking custom code to handle an HTTP request. This is something we've been doing for many years now, and it really isn't "new".

The same goes for Sinatra. I remember seeing Perl and Tcl code in the 1990s that essentially did the same thing. It's pretty much the most basic and obvious way of handling such a situation.

Cucumber reminds me of some internal software I dealt with at one firm back in the 1980s. Business analysts would write English-like acceptance tests, then feed them to a program that would generate PL/I code that'd automatically test different aspects of an accounting system.

Clojure is perhaps the worst of the examples. It's merely a dialect of a programming language that's over 50 years old. Many of us first worked with Lisp decades ago. Even targeting the JVM doesn't make it special, given that the Java platform has been publicly available for almost 20 years, and was targeted by non-Java languages well before Clojure attempted it.

While the implementations may be new, the ideas surely aren't. Having worked with equivalent technologies in the past, sometimes decades ago, many of us here just don't find them interesting or special in any way.

Re: You can't impress developers

#89
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having been in the industry for some time now, I've observed significant generational differences between how criticism is given and accepted. When I worked with developers raised in the 1920s, 1930s, and 1940s, they generally wouldn't hold back when it came to criticism. If something was done wrong, or if something was a stupid idea, they'd say so very bluntly and to-the-point. They'd also be more open to receiving…

How many of today's 90 year old developers have you worked with? Sounds weird to be assessing developers raised in the 1920s.

It was actually quite common to work with programmers and managers in their 50s and 60s, back in the 1970s...

Re: You can't impress developers

#90

Developers, in general, on average, chronically underestimate the time it takes to properly execute an idea and how many iterations and discovery of the exact needs of customers that requires. I work at a company that sells a tool for model based testing and invariably, at every customer company, there are developers that think our tool isn't worth the money, because when we explain to them how it works and they thin…

The Planning Fallacy. It is really hard to convince yourself to be pessimistic. Most people who think they are planning pessimistically are not and are underestimating the amount of time it takes for them to do something.
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