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What is Happening in Istanbul?

defnesumanblogs.com

321–330 of 519 posts

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

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This was a posted by a friend on Facebook: Since I see that some friends have got excited about the recent events in Turkey I decided to write something about it and provide some context. I think it is good to know a bit of history of Turkey before AKP to understand what is going on there. It has been more than 10 years that AKP is in power so people might not know or may have forgotten the situation before AKP. Turk…

Where does the 70% came from? Do you have a source for this? It would be better to check how many "scarf-wearers" are going to universities, this percentage would be meaningful. My opinion is that universities should be religion-free as science doesn't play well with religion. I think that the problem might be that the (nonsecular) east wants to rule the (secular) west and viceversa.

"religion-free" is a highly ambiguous term. Can you clarify?

I think that a person has a right to wear whatever clothing they feel appropriate, assuming they aren't committing indecent exposure and they don't have giant spikes protruding from their clothing that could endanger others.

Can you clarify what individual rights you think exist on university campuses, and how these interact with your goal of keeping universities "religion-free"?

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

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post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the first few weeks after, there was a growing feeling that maybe this was finally the time that the US would straighten out and take a deep and serious look at our own actions and policies. I agree we did overreact, but this sentence is just nonsense. Are you really implying that our actions and policies are what caused muslims to hate us, and that therefor we should change them???????????

> "caused muslims to hate us" Well, that's a few simultaneous fallacies. But, yes, your policies led to the 9/11 attackers deciding to attack you. Is this not blisteringly obvious? > and that therefor we should change them??????????? Oh gosh no, change? Not mid-stream.

> But, yes, your policies led to the 9/11 attackers deciding to attack you. Is this not blisteringly obvious?

In exactly the same way that wearing miniskirts leads to rape. Take for example UBL's main grievance: the presence of the international Desert Shield force, or as UBL put it, allowing infidels to live in the land of the two holy cities. That force was there at the request of King Saud of Arabia. So what makes this agreement between King Saud and 30+ other powers a valid cause for the King's subjects, or anybody else, to wage war against the US? What makes Usama bin Laden the superior authority to say who is allowed to live in Arabia? What justifies forbidding people from holding any other religious belief than the approved one? What makes Usama bin Laden the sole authority on religious matters in Arabia who can decide what religion people are allowed to believe?

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

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post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course we're "allowed" to own them in the United States... Despite what people on reddit, and other fringe internet forums would have you believe, The United States has some of the strongest personal liberties in the world.

Here are the rules by US state: http://www.anapsid.org/cnd/mcs/maskcodes.html

Yes, and the only mention of a gas mask anywhere on there is in a law explicitly allowing them.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#324
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course we're "allowed" to own them in the United States... Despite what people on reddit, and other fringe internet forums would have you believe, The United States has some of the strongest personal liberties in the world.

Fairly disingenuous to claim we can own them, which, though true as far as it goes, really doesn't accurately describe the situation. In most jurisdictions, it's illegal to wear a gas mask during a protest. The ostensible logic for this is that they, as with all masks, obscure the face and hinder personal identification by police (which we'd call "internal security forces" if it were Turkey or China or someplace). If…

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Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#325
post #285

This was a posted by a friend on Facebook: Since I see that some friends have got excited about the recent events in Turkey I decided to write something about it and provide some context. I think it is good to know a bit of history of Turkey before AKP to understand what is going on there. It has been more than 10 years that AKP is in power so people might not know or may have forgotten the situation before AKP. Turk…

Excuse my ignorance in the following, I am trying to understand the situation based on very little prior knowledge:

What you say makes a lot of sense, but can you comment on how this generally "good" government seems to be using excessive force, and the claimed media blackout on the protests?

I understand that the government may be more respectful of democracy than their opponents, but is it possible that the protesters still want more freedom and democracy, rather than supporting the Kemalist ideology?

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

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Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a great place to live as long as you do not try to exercise a political freedom I'm not arguing with that. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think it has been conclusively proved that being able to exercise that freedom leads to a better society, and it is that end we should be thinking about, not the means. > decide that you'd rather prize political freedom over wealth Long term, if political freedom doesn't…

>I'm not arguing with that. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think it has been conclusively proved that being able to exercise that freedom leads to a better society, and it is that end we should be thinking about, not the means. There is a problem with centralised political power, and that's that if a nastier, more corrupt and less tolerant clique gets hold of that power there is absolutely nothing that can st…

> There is a problem with centralised political power

Well yes, of course. Even the laziest student of history knows that. I am not trying to advocate for that extreme end of the range of political possibilities.

The elephant in the room, though, is that the other extreme - our hyper-egalitarianism; giving everyone, by birth, no matter how uninformed, no matter how disinterested, an unchallenged vote does not seem to be working too well. Especially when one throws such "freedoms" into the mix as the ability for the incumbent ruling class to massively amplify their own voices by the mass media. So "there is a problem" with what we have, too.

You say that there's a problem with centralised political power, and I agree wholeheartedly, but we certainly do have a problem because that centralised power is in every lounge room, car radio and news stand in the land. At least with communism you knew who was pulling the strings!

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#328
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. I am speechless. As someone who was born and raised in Turkey, and visited Singapore for long periods of time, let me say very clearly: you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Turkey and Singapore are two completely different worlds, with different histories, cultures, and geopolitical situations, and are not related in any shape or form. There may be a few surface-level parallels, but that's wher…

You know, actually the US isn't that much freer in practice compared to Singapore. In theory, perhaps. And the reason has less to do with the decline of rugged individualism amongst soccer moms than the existence of a constant low-level background threat, whether from terrorism, a sizable underclass, law enforcement, or (this might be embarassing for some) alcoholism. They don't check IDs for alcohol in Singapore. If…

If you want to see actual practical examples of freedom, you have to go to western Europe.

You have to go where?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/1009...

I think if you want to see practical examples of freedom, you can conquer your own island and start inventing them. No modern nation is going to tolerate very much of it.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#329

I just went to Youtube, and on the first page there was this video of a protester overrun by a police tank: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbYQ_dzFniY EDIT: it looks to me that at the beginning of the video you can spot the feet of another person behind him.

The man is safe. Good bless him. This video reminds me of Tiananmen Square of 1989 and June 4 Massacre. Hope every protester is safe.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#330
I've been following the events since the beginning (in fact I was there at the solitary meeting in Chicago yesterday: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-local-...), so let me summarize what's been going on. However, if you have time to read just a single post, read this (http://technosociology.org/?p=1255) spot on analysis instead of my comment.

First, it's not an Istanbul thing anymore, many Turkish cities, especially Izmir and Ankara witnessed large protests and clashes with the police in the past couple of days.

On paper, this started with a small group of protesters sitting in the park to stop its demolition and cutting down the trees on Monday. That evening and at 5am on Tuesday morning they were violently attacked by the police. The attacks continued on Wednesday. The appalling police brutality unfortunately is nothing new in Turkey but this time it triggered an unexpected reaction from a wide swath of people.

People's discontent with AKP has been rising for some time, although they have provided a stable economy for the past 10 years. Some of the recent events have really notched it up, though, e.g.:

* The fact that government made no official plans to celebrate the May 19th holiday, which is an important day in the creation of the Turkish Republic (mirroring their approach to the October 29th holiday, which is like July 4th for Turkey)

* Lack of adequate response from PM Erdogan to the bombing in Reyhanli. Rather than cancel his visit to the US to visit the town, he went with his original plan. A lot of people thought that he brought such terrorist activities on Turkey due to his agressive rhetoric on Essad and his strong support of the dissidents there.

* The recent ban on the sale of alcohol between 10pm and 6am (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/31/turkey-alcohol-l...). This was an unheard-of move that angered a lot of people, not because Turkey consumes a lot of alcohol but it was interpreted as a step to the Islamic Law.

What really surprised me (and I witnessed many a protest and a few military coups there) was the exponential growth of the protest and its apolitical nature. Before, people used to write the usual leftist slogans on the walls, this time there were a lot of funny graffiti about Erdogan, the police and the pepper gas (examples at https://eksisozluk.com/gezi-parki-isgali-duvar-yazilari--385..., for Turkish readers).

Due to the wide use of social media there were some disinfomation as expected, spread around by excited people, e.g. that the police was using Agent Orange. This was due to the China-like complacency of the Turkish media. In fact, when CNN International was transmitting live from the riots in Istanbul CNN Turk was running a documentary about penguins! The reason for this is two-fold: the intimidation of reporters in the past 2-3 years (e.g. see the OdaTV case, where the owner of a TV station and reporters were swiftly jailed with scant evidence when they criticized the government: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/28/world/europe/soner-yalcin-...). The other reason is the financial blackmail that the government exercises over large media conglomerates, e.g. when the Dogan group got a colossal $2.3B tax fine in 2009.

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