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You can't impress developers

baus.net

141–150 of 175 posts

Re: You can't impress developers

#141
While I can empathize with Olemis on the reception of Brython on Hacker News, I'm not sure one can infer from that exchange (or the admittedly high number of similar conversations) that developers are incapable of being impressed. This just doesn't jive with my experience at all.

From the dozen Hack and Tells (http://hackandtell.org/) held around the world to the hundreds of stories developers have of their first time looking at ffmpeg's source to the growing number of live Javascript console demos (great one here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jArKzo-h3R0) to Dan Kaminsky's DNS bug discovery - I feel developers are very clearly capable of being impressed. It is a pretty regular thing.

It is, I will say, a very, very hard thing to do. I encounter it each day in my gig serving developer communities at Twilio. I have to bring my best work to them every time I ask for their attention - anything less ends in derision or, even worse, dismissal. Developers are natural skeptics whose daily work's default state is broken. This engenders a very high velocity needed to escape that skepticism.

Further, while HN certainly qualifies as a representative set, it is a specific demo of developer. There is a wide swath of developers who don't participate in this forum - poor reception here rarely means poor reception everywhere developers live.

Finally, I would submit that if impressing developers is one's goal in a project, one is probably set up for disappointment from the start. Amazement is an extrinsic factor that makes a poor primary goal as many factors governing success lie outsides the code one writes or the product one is building.

I always feel happiest when I fix the problems I want to solve elegantly and those solutions are widely adopted by the people primarily suffering from those problems. Whatever people think outside that scope doesn't really affect that satisfaction.

Re: You can't impress developers

#142

Hacker News is going through a predictable evolution. In the early days it's a wonderful community of supportive collaborators. These are the people who start unmoderated mail lists and discussion groups, at least the ones that grow to the next stage. It attracts people who want to be part of an unmoderated mail list or discussion group. It doesn't matter what the topic is, they always show up. They feel a sense of e…

some people, when you disagree with them (or even if they _perceive_ you disagree), will incorrectly attribute your disagreement as showing "you hate everything and anything".

it doesn't matter how much evidence you submit in support of your arguments, the "fact" that "you hate everything and anything" is all-purpose.

is dave one of those people? decide for yourself.

but i can assure you that the dynamics of community are far more complicated than "wonderful supportive collaborators" who get sabotaged by "dark trolls"...

-bowerbird

Re: You can't impress developers

#143
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans are notoriously optimistic, and in particular, we forget about all the things we have to do in order to achieve the things we want to do. (I have been reading some research on this lately). I used to harbour the "build it in a weekend" suspicion about everything, and then I started building things. The world is a damn mess, is what it is.

Indeed, I don't think it's just a developer problem. Making stuff is haard, and the more you do it, the more you understand that. Maybe it's related to that thing that has mentioned on HN quite often lately, where the incompetent people are unaware of their own incompetence?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-kruger_effect

I'm not sure that it's Dunning Kruger so much as it is just not knowing at the outset of the project all the pitfalls you'll get into making it.

Re: You can't impress developers

#144

Developers, in general, on average, chronically underestimate the time it takes to properly execute an idea and how many iterations and discovery of the exact needs of customers that requires. I work at a company that sells a tool for model based testing and invariably, at every customer company, there are developers that think our tool isn't worth the money, because when we explain to them how it works and they thin…

In defense of that mindset creating something for personal use often involves 5% or less of the effort it takes to bring something to market. Or as an EE friend once said about his home built hot-tub if X went wrong then scolding hot water would shoot out of the pipes but it's not something I am worried about because I would freak out and pull the plug if Y or Z started to happen. Which transforms a huge fundamental flaw in the design to something that's not that important.

Re: You can't impress developers

#145

I've been active here for about 2 years now. I don't think there's been the dreadful decline people are talking about; I think it's mostly nostalgia talking. I know intellectually that I basically hated highschool and spent most of it alternatively depressed or bored out of my skull, yet somehow that period of my life has taken on a rosy tint. Sometimes OPs are wrong or misguided and somebody with more experience or…

As someone who's been here for >6 years, I can say it has definitely experienced a drastic decline.

Re: You can't impress developers

#146
No... Developers are really easy to impress. Show them something that will save them time and effort to make something and they will flock around it. You give them a tool that "automagically" does something tedious they used to do and makes it easy and they will be there in a heartbeat with their wallets open.

The python in javascript on the client side is a neat hack, but it's not solving any known problem for the mass of developers here. If this showed examples of performance and gained improvement over alternatives and it would sell better here. Right now though, it pushes the idea that javascript isn't good enough and we should be using something else in the browser (see DART, CoffeeScript, etc and related flame wars).

Re: You can't impress developers

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a quintessential "middlebrow dismissal", taking an uninteresting point, dismissing it with trivial technicalities, and pretending it added anything to the conversation. The conversation then gets sidetracked to debate semantics or pedantic details. I've started down-voting these types of posts.

Presumably you are referring to PommeDeTerre's comment as "middlebrow dismissal" and I don't believe his intent was to sidetrack the debate with semantic and pedantic details. His comment is a new branch in the comment tree. If you find this branch uninteresting you're free to not follow it. Sometimes some really interesting conversations appear a few branches deep in the comment trees that are completely off-topic.…

> And for the record, I don't agree with PommeDeTerre's comment at all because I think he missed the point akkatrik was making when he listed his examples.

But that's my point. It's happening right now in this thread. :-)

Re: You can't impress developers

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having been in the industry for some time now, I've observed significant generational differences between how criticism is given and accepted. When I worked with developers raised in the 1920s, 1930s, and 1940s, they generally wouldn't hold back when it came to criticism. If something was done wrong, or if something was a stupid idea, they'd say so very bluntly and to-the-point. They'd also be more open to receiving…

I would argue criticism is communicated differently across generations, not being less accepted. There is a difference between a) "I don't like $x about your idea." b) "I like $y about your idea. I think you could make it even better if you do $x differently. For example like this: ..." In my experience, older generations tend to do a) more, while younger ones do (and expect) b) more. Not a bad development IMO.

I would also add that it mirrors the situation of when you try to speak to someone who is new to your language. The normal/bad strategy is to talk slower and louder, which can elevate the communication, from normal, to a personal attack, when they just responded in a way that you, the speaker, did not expect.

Re: You can't impress developers

#149

Developers, in general, on average, chronically underestimate the time it takes to properly execute an idea and how many iterations and discovery of the exact needs of customers that requires. I work at a company that sells a tool for model based testing and invariably, at every customer company, there are developers that think our tool isn't worth the money, because when we explain to them how it works and they thin…

Humans are notoriously optimistic, and in particular, we forget about all the things we have to do in order to achieve the things we want to do. (I have been reading some research on this lately). I used to harbour the "build it in a weekend" suspicion about everything, and then I started building things. The world is a damn mess, is what it is.

Well put Jacques, I couldn't help but reblog this! :)

http://johnmardlin.tumblr.com/post/51994252739/humans-are-no...

Re: You can't impress developers

#150

Actually I'm impressed that all these 'look what I implemented in a Turing complete language' posts got so much attention for so long.

What's such a novelty about sequences of ones and zeros? And even that is really just the separation of darkness from light. We've had that since Creation.
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