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Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

jacquesmattheij.com

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Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#131

Post by snowwindwaves »

jcrites wrote: post #120
smoyer wrote: post #35

It's a bit disingenuous to suggest that accidents like this don't also happen in the U.S. (or other "first-world" countries). In the mid-to-late '90s I was working on a project that had a fatal accident in the Omaha NE area (fortunately I wasn't present to witness it). Another contractor was lacing new fiber-optic cable to the existing coaxial cable and realized they'd run the fiber over a safety ground about 7 poles…

> They knew there was a slight risk the ground wire would be hot once disconnected Is there some way you could measure that before touching it or messing with it? And then call in the power company if its properties are not what they are expected to be?

Only in a perfect world would there be zero current on a ground wire.

The current can be measured by measuring the field around the wire. There are many manufacturers of clip on ammeters which make a loop around the wire and then measure The current or potential induced in the loop by the field resulting from the current in the ground wire.

That video was truly horrible. Was that metal scaffolding? I am surprised that fault carried on for 3 Minutes. A fuse should have blown or other protection operated.

Maybe if it was wooden scaffolding it was a high impedance fault undiscernable from high loads.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#132

Post by pfortuny »

adharmad wrote: post #103
pfortuny wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, reading some Dickens will show they said the same in London in the early 1800s. And now we talk about those times as hideous, unjust, abusive... Is it a choice between death by fire and death by starvation? I do not call that a choice.

You are right. It is not a real choice. But aren't the political and economic conditions in China the responsibility of the Chinese Government and at some level the Chinese people? Maybe the "choice" that they made is not the hideous working conditions but tolerating their political establishment that made such conditions a norm.

Yes, that is right. I only wanted to defend the people and point out the dire place they are in. Guilt is on the Chinese Government above all, certainly.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#133

Post by jdietrich »

The headline is a lie. If you follow the link trail, you'll find that the workers were on a construction site for a municipal biogas facility. If this is the most disturbing thing Matheij has ever seen, then he clearly knows very little about workplace safety. Accidents of this sort happen on a daily basis in the developed world.

Outsourcing is the key driver for workplace safety improvements in China. The worst working conditions are consistently found in factories producing goods for the local market. Working conditions in the major OEM factories routinely meets and exceeds western standards.

Chinese businesses that trade with the west are subject to a degree of scrutiny that simply doesn't happen within the country. International buyers are very keen to avoid being the centre of a PR disaster, so they're fastidious about safety and environmental health.

Corners do get cut in the developing world, but it's ludicrous to paint western buyers as the bad guys. They're working night and day to make sure that their contractors abide by the labour conditions set out in their contract, conditions invariably far higher than the norm in China.

If you want to improve working conditions in Chinese factories, keep buying Chinese made goods, but demand quality. You can't make an iPhone in a filthy shack.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#134

Post by icebraining »

betterunix wrote: post #109
yummyfajitas wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If prices go up sufficiently then there is no advantage to building a factory in Bangladesh. Bangladeshi workers then become unemployed. Right now, Bangladesh needs wealth more than anything else. Once they have wealth, they can spend it on things like OSHA.

Or, you know, those countries could have factories that satisfy their markets, and we could have factories that satisfy ours. All without having to kill people in the process or burning dirty fuels shipping goods halfway around the world.

Factories that satisfy their markets won't magically become safe and clean, much like the ones in the now "developed word" during the industrialization phase weren't.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#135

Post by gwern »

jellicle wrote: post #76

Hacker News response: "They knew the risks they were taking. They were all expert electricians who fully knew that their pay of almost $10,000/year would compensate them for the risk they were taking. If we started regulating companies like this, pretty soon there wouldn't be any companies and the entire world economy would collapse, people eating people, Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome, and you don't want that, do you? B…

Yes. Well-meaning regulation and a licensing raj come at the cost of economic growth, which is what will enable China to eventually afford the safeguards richer countries can take for granted. For unrelated reasons, I've been reading for the past few days through https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Obsolete_occupations - there are some really fascinating entries, but what's equally fascinating is how the most awful revolting horrifying British or American occupations like gong farmer or breaker boy or hurrier (and even some of the not-so-bad occupations like Herb Strewer or linkboy or ice man or leech collector or knocker-up) were made 'obsolete' by increased economic growth, even in cases like knocker-up where one might naively think it was actually technology we can thank (because mechanical clocks certainly existed and could've been used to replace the knocker-up, it's just the knocker-up was cheaper).

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#136

Post by [deleted] »

kamakazizuru wrote: post #126
betterunix wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, you know, those countries could have factories that satisfy their markets, and we could have factories that satisfy ours. All without having to kill people in the process or burning dirty fuels shipping goods halfway around the world.

theres an interesting course called economics 101 - check it out.

[deleted]

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#137

Post by dllthomas »

betterunix wrote: post #119
city41 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with that is country borders. If China mandated safety then the factories just move to another country.

Yeah, and the solution is not to only mandate safety standards at your own factories, but to impose a stiff tariff on goods produced in countries without comparable standards (and without meaningful enforcement). Yeah, I know, "free trade," but it is not a fair market if some people are playing by a different set of rules, and we do not want to have a race to the bottom.

What we need, I think, is international agreement on what those tariffs should be.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#138

Post by icebraining »

betterunix wrote: post #113
bargl wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm inclined to agree with pavs. I've done some traveling and living abroad, and it seems that these many other countries are in an industrial revolution stage of development. For the USA that meant better working environments, hours, safety, and pay. Before these things were in place we had insufficient labor laws here too. The portion that I'm missing is that, here in the states our industrial revolution paid well…

"However, I think the OP being concerned about this is great, but you can't force change onto another culture nor should you" We can, however, stop buying products made in such dangerous factories, and make it clear why we are doing so. Why should we demand that factories in this country adhere to certain safety standards, then buy cheap goods from factories in other countries that do not adhere to the same standards…

We can, however, stop buying products made in such dangerous factories

How do you know what factories are dangerous?

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#139

Post by makomk »

hackerboos wrote: post #92
jellicle wrote: post #76

Hacker News response: "They knew the risks they were taking. They were all expert electricians who fully knew that their pay of almost $10,000/year would compensate them for the risk they were taking. If we started regulating companies like this, pretty soon there wouldn't be any companies and the entire world economy would collapse, people eating people, Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome, and you don't want that, do you? B…

Hacker News certainly seems to lean toward the Libertarian-right. Some of the comments I read regarding regulation (or abolishment of it) is frightening. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5647898

Slashdot was very similar back when it was still popular. I think it's something to do with hacker culture in general...

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#140

Post by icebraining »

sambeau wrote: post #27
bayesianhorse wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually the same disregard for human life that could be seen in the not so distant past in Europe or America. But youtube wasn't around back then.

It was wrong then and it is wrong now.

Saying it's wrong fixes nothing. What realistic alternative would you prefer instead, how do plan to get people (e.g. factory owners) to follow it without harming the people you're trying to help?
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