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Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

jacquesmattheij.com

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Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#61

Post by ghshephard »

jacquesm wrote: post #33
ExpiredLink wrote: post #17

> Pollution, a total disrespect for the environment in general and for human lives in particular is what powers the trade that brings cheap goods to the stores near us. The Anti-China propaganda has reached HN.

Wow, that's quite a feat of misunderstanding. And I tried pretty hard to make sure that that exact comment wouldn't be made in order to reject the thing out of hand. I'm fine with producing goods in the far east, but the fact is that the low prices are in fact powered by more than just a simple difference in value between currencies and standard of living. The pollution and the work place risks (including death) are…

It really is basic anti-china propaganda, whether you are engaging in it deliberately or not. Horrific YouTube videos notwithstanding, the vast majority of chinese people working in those manufacturing jobs are far, far better off and safer than if they had to work in an agriculture position (In china, or the united states for that matter)

Also - have you ever taken an Industrial First Aid course? Lots of gruesome depictions of what happens in some idiotic US workplaces as well.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#62

Post by eksith »

muyuu wrote: post #56
eksith wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're in Bangladesh and in a well of part of the city, you say. A family of 6 with 2 maids and 2 drivers too. Your entire post reminds me of something else I read : http://newint.org/features/2013/01/01/india-elite-sense-of-e... While the countries are all different (I'm from Sri Lanka originally), the attitudes are astoundingly similar. It's the Western equivalent of let them eat cake since they're used to eating g…

These jobs wouldn't be there if not for the low wages. They belong to a foreign industry and a foreign market, it's nothing that they can simply protect internally.

Now that the jobs are there, the foreign industry has a responsibility to maintain the welfare of their slave labor force.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#63

Post by bargl »

pavs wrote: post #22

One of the issue that comes up with this type of discussion about low pay to workers on developing worlds like China, India, Bangladesh (recently you might have heard some news about it in the media). I am in Bangladesh, while I agree that a lot can be done to improve working conditions and worker safety, and in some cases worker's payment too. But its not nearly as bad as people make it (esp the ones who have never…

I'm inclined to agree with pavs. I've done some traveling and living abroad, and it seems that these many other countries are in an industrial revolution stage of development.

For the USA that meant better working environments, hours, safety, and pay. Before these things were in place we had insufficient labor laws here too. The portion that I'm missing is that, here in the states our industrial revolution paid well enough for parents to provide a better standard of living for their children. Those children were able to do the same, and we increased the middle class. If that is what is going on in China then we should NOT stop purchasing good from them. Here are a few links from a quick online search. http://www.futuredirections.org.au/publications/food-and-wat... http://money.cnn.com/2012/04/25/news/economy/china-middle-cl...

However, I think the OP being concerned about this is great, but you can't force change onto another culture nor should you. We can attempt to empower them to make the change, and be aware so that we aren't supporting the a workforce that is being sucked into a cycle of poverty.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#64

Post by yummyfajitas »

sambeau wrote: post #37
pavs wrote: post #22

One of the issue that comes up with this type of discussion about low pay to workers on developing worlds like China, India, Bangladesh (recently you might have heard some news about it in the media). I am in Bangladesh, while I agree that a lot can be done to improve working conditions and worker safety, and in some cases worker's payment too. But its not nearly as bad as people make it (esp the ones who have never…

It's not the low-pay per se that concerns those who criticise the outsourcing of everything to the developing world. It is the lack of comparable safety standards, environmental standards and workers' rights. We in the developed world fought hard for around 200 years to achieve these standards and rights and it smarts to see large corporations side-step them by outsourcing to countries that don't require or enforce t…

A company doing business in Bangladesh has a fixed amount of money they can spend on compensation + safety + etc. In a competitive industry like garment manufacturing, the margins are already very thin, so increasing safety will result in reduced worker pay (or shutting down and workers becoming unemployed).

There is no free lunch. The most we can do is force workers to trade pay for safety, which they might not want to do.

...re-balancing some of the giant manufacturing cost differential that these companies achieve by such a side-step.

The primary goal of many activists is exactly this: re-balancing the cost differential so that low skill American workers can continue to be paid well. I.e., a redistribution of wealth from Bangladesh to the US.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#65

Post by fpgeek »

Yes, on the one hand the working conditions are shocking and horrifying and deplorable and I would move mountains to keep my children from ever working anywhere even remotely like that.

On the other, every kid working in one of those factories is one that didn't get their legs broken or worse so they'd be a better beggar, who isn't searching through garbage for food or things I can't even imagine.

Within my lifetime, the conversation about China and India has gone from "How do we keep them from starving?" to "How do we fix their horrible working conditions?". That's an incredible, historic achievement. Is there still a long way to go? Absolutely. Plenty of horrible things had to happen in the US before we got OSHA. But things are heading in the right direction and we need to keep it that way. Push to make them better, of course, but realize that the only sustainable change is to broadly raise the standard of living so that workers want more and are in a position to demand it. Anything less is a house of cards that will collapse once the spotlight is off.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#66

Post by bobbydavid »

There are a lot of comments about the awful working conditions in China and how we should push for better conditions, but none I've seen are by the workers themselves. I can't help but wonder: what is the sentiment on this issue in China itself? As we've seen countless times before (look at Istanbul now), widespread civilian unhappiness has a way of bubbling out. Can someone provide some pointers to Chinese sentiment on this issue?

I ask because I know different areas of the world have different values, and things that seem wholly unacceptable in one place may seem more tolerable in another. Look at gun rights in the US, for example. I don't mean to imply that these workers don't care about their working conditions; I just think it's important to stay grounded in the reality that what's best for them is what _they_ want for themselves.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#67

Post by bryan11 »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #23
Articulate wrote: post #12

It really is in the power of the consumer to force companies to change. The heads of corporations are required and expected to be seeking out the highest possible returns for their investors. If their competitors use foreign labor with very cheap standards then that company is at a disadvantage in the marketplace. Only when consumers take into account the working conditions of the laborers does the marketplace change…

It seems sort of perverse that working conditions in China are dictated by the whims of consumers in the west. How would one go about convincing the consumer to change? That is the hard question. There are already various organisations out there who campaign to make people aware of these conditions, so it's unlikely that people are totally ignorant. Yet these don't seem to have affected widespread change in spending…

It's not a case of saying no to cheap. For most, it's one of buying stuff from China or doing without.

Most middle-class consumers in the USA really have few options. Whether from local stores or online, the majority of all toys, tools, electronics, and household items are made in China. If another option exists, it's frequently available online only from Europe or Japan that's twice the cost.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#69

Post by aj700 »

Supply and demand. The system is pricing their labour as if they are fungible, so numerous that they are worthless. Because they are that numerous. But you can't tell people not to breed without taking away their rights. Really, was a "right" to reproduce a good idea? You can't talk about overpopulation without being called an ecofascist.

So I suppose it's good that goods won't be scarce much longer and will all be made with printers, robots, nano-assemblers.

I assume that eventually people's families will be rich enough to sue over employee deaths?

China makes few lines of products that are luxuries. It makes many that are necessities at almost any price. I need them. If people don't have enough money to buy more expensively and carefully made things, it's because governments have let inequality go too far and because the 1% have hoarded it.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#70

Post by DanBC »

bobbydavid wrote: post #66

There are a lot of comments about the awful working conditions in China and how we should push for better conditions, but none I've seen are by the workers themselves. I can't help but wonder: what is the sentiment on this issue in China itself? As we've seen countless times before (look at Istanbul now), widespread civilian unhappiness has a way of bubbling out. Can someone provide some pointers to Chinese sentiment…

> I just think it's important to stay grounded in the reality that what's best for them is what _they_ want for themselves.

That's a baffling comment.

(https://secure.flickr.com/photos/george-photography-pictures...)

(http://www.indigenouspeople.net/garbage.htm)

(http://oliver-vaccaro.com/index.php?/root/pepenadores/)

People are trapped in this lifestyle, but feel that it's better than the alternative. That doesn't mean they truly want this. They just don't know what else to do.

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