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Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

jacquesmattheij.com

31–40 of 175 posts

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#31
I didn't watch the video after reading the description. But this problem of poor worker conditions (and poor compensation) is true of so many goods produced cheaply in China or other countries in Asia. I feel we in the "West" (i.e North America, Western Europe) have an ambivalent attitude towards this issue. We decry the outsourcing of manufacturing to other countries, yet we're only too happy to continue purchasing those goods. We might say we are prepared to pay more for quality and standards, but our endless consumption of all these cheap products suggests otherwise.

What's more, we fawn over some technology companies and take such an uncritical view of their behaviour over the production of their goods (because we love their products) when we should in fact be far more critical.

On a more positive note, there are schemes like Fairtrade that have gained favour with the public. Fairtrade guarantees a fair price to producers of mostly food products. It's not perfect, but a product with a Fairtrade mark provides some re-assurance that the product you buy meets certain ethical standards. Encouragingy, Fairtrade goods are popular with the public too:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2013/mar/02/fairtrade-taste-...

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#32

> Pollution, a total disrespect for the environment in general and for human lives in particular is what powers the trade that brings cheap goods to the stores near us. The Anti-China propaganda has reached HN.

Pointing out real flaws in China's employment & environmental business practices is not anti-China propaganda.

These are things that generations of campaigners have fought against since the beginning of the industrial revolution.

China is now being judged by the same rules as the rest of the world. This is fair and it is to be welcomed.

With luck China and the other fast-growing economies of the world will embrace workers rights and environmental standards in far less than the ~200 years it took Europe.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#33

> Pollution, a total disrespect for the environment in general and for human lives in particular is what powers the trade that brings cheap goods to the stores near us. The Anti-China propaganda has reached HN.

Wow, that's quite a feat of misunderstanding. And I tried pretty hard to make sure that that exact comment wouldn't be made in order to reject the thing out of hand.

I'm fine with producing goods in the far east, but the fact is that the low prices are in fact powered by more than just a simple difference in value between currencies and standard of living.

The pollution and the work place risks (including death) are a really large factor in those price differences, as corroborated not only by this particular video (which is horrifying) as well as by contact with people that live there or have spent significant time there.

To dismiss this as propaganda is Ostrich politics at its best, we may have to simply realize that we will have to pay more for the goods that we receive unless we want to be explicitly named as accomplices in the situations that we have created.

The fact that some companies have already started programs to track the resources that go into their goods and that some companies have agreed to living wages and anti-pollution measures for their entire supply chain indicates that at least in some boardrooms the message is heard. Profits are important but not that important.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#34

> Pollution, a total disrespect for the environment in general and for human lives in particular is what powers the trade that brings cheap goods to the stores near us. The Anti-China propaganda has reached HN.

It looks like a reoccurring pattern today, that unexplained conspiracy theories are used to dismiss a well formed argument.

Another example from the "What is Happening in Istanbul" thread - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5808064

You can't just drop accusations like that without supporting them with, at least, an equally well formed argument.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#35
It's a bit disingenuous to suggest that accidents like this don't also happen in the U.S. (or other "first-world" countries). In the mid-to-late '90s I was working on a project that had a fatal accident in the Omaha NE area (fortunately I wasn't present to witness it).

Another contractor was lacing new fiber-optic cable to the existing coaxial cable and realized they'd run the fiber over a safety ground about 7 poles back. Rather than unlace that much cable, they opted to lift the safety ground, move it outside the fiber and reconnect the ground. These ground wires are not supposed to be carrying current when things are working correctly - this one was an it electrocuted those working on it.

Regulations are pretty explicit about how to add cable and telephone wires to a power pole ... and only the power company is supposed to mess with the power. The SCTE and NCTA both have training regimens that obsess over safety, especially when you're working around power (since none of us are actually power experts).

So why did this accident happen? The workers were contractors of contractors of contractors who got paid by the mile. The more fiber they laced up in a day, the more they got paid. They knew there was a slight risk the ground wire would be hot once disconnected but they chose to ignore it for financial reasons.

I've seen tall scaffolding on wheels being moved around in the U.S. and I'm hoping the workers were well versed in the perils of letting their metal structure touch power lines, but what you can't tell from this video is how well these workers were trained and whether they realized the wire they hit was active.

I'm not disagreeing with your article's main points ... that we need to value human life and protect the environment. But I also don't think this video is particularly good at promoting those values.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#36
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...and there we go, the proverbial, libertarian "choice".

It's not about "libertarian choice". It's about not being able to change all the world in an instant. Workplace safety in China looks to be increasing. Wages too. For that matter, the Chinese workforce is shrinking while Mexico has lower labor costs. Also this constant global coverage due to youtube or other media is improving things in China. Without the unprecedented awareness the internet affords us, I don't think…

Yes, work conditions in China are slowly and steadily improving.

But somehow, whenever the concept of choice comes up, it's always about the privileged giving the oppressed a pep talk, claiming that whatever position society has put them in "it's really totally fine".

"Safety is increasing" - would /you/ work at such a factory?

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#37
post #22

One of the issue that comes up with this type of discussion about low pay to workers on developing worlds like China, India, Bangladesh (recently you might have heard some news about it in the media). I am in Bangladesh, while I agree that a lot can be done to improve working conditions and worker safety, and in some cases worker's payment too. But its not nearly as bad as people make it (esp the ones who have never…

It's not the low-pay per se that concerns those who criticise the outsourcing of everything to the developing world. It is the lack of comparable safety standards, environmental standards and workers' rights. We in the developed world fought hard for around 200 years to achieve these standards and rights and it smarts to see large corporations side-step them by outsourcing to countries that don't require or enforce them.

It is in everyone's long-term interest to continue lobbying the companies who make our stuff to start requiring equal standards and rights wherever their stuff is manufactured. It will benefit the people of those countries who do the manufacture while re-balancing some of the giant manufacturing cost differential that these companies achieve by such a side-step.

Cheap stuff comes at a high cost.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#38
post #22

One of the issue that comes up with this type of discussion about low pay to workers on developing worlds like China, India, Bangladesh (recently you might have heard some news about it in the media). I am in Bangladesh, while I agree that a lot can be done to improve working conditions and worker safety, and in some cases worker's payment too. But its not nearly as bad as people make it (esp the ones who have never…

You're in Bangladesh and in a well of part of the city, you say. A family of 6 with 2 maids and 2 drivers too. Your entire post reminds me of something else I read :

http://newint.org/features/2013/01/01/india-elite-sense-of-e...

While the countries are all different (I'm from Sri Lanka originally), the attitudes are astoundingly similar.

It's the Western equivalent of let them eat cake since they're used to eating grass. Underpaid labor is better than no pay is an excuse of the privileged; and only the privileged.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#39
post #34

> Pollution, a total disrespect for the environment in general and for human lives in particular is what powers the trade that brings cheap goods to the stores near us. The Anti-China propaganda has reached HN.

It looks like a reoccurring pattern today, that unexplained conspiracy theories are used to dismiss a well formed argument. Another example from the "What is Happening in Istanbul" thread - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5808064 You can't just drop accusations like that without supporting them with, at least, an equally well formed argument.

> It looks like a reoccurring pattern

You want the political articles, you've got to accept the degraded quality of the site and discussion that goes along with them.

Re: Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap

#40
Jacques have you ever thought of exploiting this situation. I mean It is well known and it has been shown that these kinds of inefficiencies can be exploited.

Why don't you move to Asia and start founding companies? With your superior knowledge and with the hands of the hard working locals you could start building a brave new world. You could pay better wages and get increased worker loyalty in return.

I can easily imagine how a group of entrepreneurs (say 50-100) could change a whole culture, simply by outcompeting the old way.

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