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What is Happening in Istanbul?

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Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#31
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet a democratically-elected government made a decision in the name of the people to replace this park with a shopping mall. People protesting against that by blocking the construction process (i.e. stand in front of bulldozers etc.) are effectively overturning democracy in order to protect their personal interests. This is a general problem I have with such active counter-protests, be they to stop a station from bei…

> People protesting against that by blocking the construction process (i.e. stand in front of bulldozers etc.) are effectively overturning democracy in order to protect their personal interests. I think this is getting at the heart of civil disobedience : the violation of laws or decrees considered unjust. I know nothing about the Turkish protests, but another example of civil disobedience is Martin Luther King, Jr.…

First let me clarify that instead of ‘overturn’, ‘ignore’, ‘overrule’ or ‘disregard’ might have been better, as I wanted to say that such protests overrule one particular democratic decision and not necessarily the whole form of government.

Then, as I said, the matter is difficult – essentially you have to weigh the predictable functioning of the democratic process against the damage that can be done to people if this process ‘goes wrong’. Unfortunately, this has a whole bunch of problems:

- we do not have a universal definition of when a democratic decision is so wrong it is acceptable for someone to stand up against it

- that someone has to judge objectively whether his rights were violated in such a way that he is justified to stand up against the democratic will

- in many cases, we do not know what the majority ‘really’ wants

- even if a given system/constitution has securities that allow people to stand up against democratically made decisions, these might be seen as either too lax or too restrictive.

For example, the German constitution would allow the people to overthrow a democratic government that wants to cut back on social security in such a way as to violate article 20 of the Basic Law[0] – in the US, on the other hand, people apparently sometimes feel obliged to oppose a government that wants to introduce such social security. If even two relatively similar western societies cannot agree on when it is acceptable to overrule a democratic decision, how can we expect to find universal rules for that on a global scale?

In essence, it is a philosophical discussion on how much you respect democratic decisions as compared to the rights of individuals, and whether or not you only accept positive law or also include some ‘natural’ law in your decision-making.

I tend to like both democracy and positive law, but YMMV, of course. :)

[0] It defines Germany as a ‘social federal state’, does not allow to change that definition, and allows everyone to take up arms against those trying to change it, provided that all other means have been exhausted.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#32

Loath as I am to cite Buzzfeed, but: the images of the people on the bridge are not from these protests. They are from the 2012 Istanbul Marathon. http://www.buzzfeed.com/hunterschwarz/one-of-the-most-popula...

I did not find a replica of the bridge posted.

Perhaps it is a popular crossing that gets filled up whenever major events are happening?

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#33

One of the most challenging aspects of learning about important, under-reported events is correcting for the biases of individuals who are reporting on it For example, while there are no doubt many shopping malls in Istanbul, I doubt there is "at least one in every neighborhood!" (unless that word is better translated as something more like a suburb) This makes it harder to trust all of the details of the more seriou…

It's hyperbole. I think most people can see through "at least one in every neighborhood" as an emotional response to what is happening.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People protesting against that by blocking the construction process (i.e. stand in front of bulldozers etc.) are effectively overturning democracy in order to protect their personal interests. I think this is getting at the heart of civil disobedience : the violation of laws or decrees considered unjust. I know nothing about the Turkish protests, but another example of civil disobedience is Martin Luther King, Jr.…

First let me clarify that instead of ‘overturn’, ‘ignore’, ‘overrule’ or ‘disregard’ might have been better, as I wanted to say that such protests overrule one particular democratic decision and not necessarily the whole form of government. Then, as I said, the matter is difficult – essentially you have to weigh the predictable functioning of the democratic process against the damage that can be done to people if thi…

I don't really see cause for surprise that the US and Germany are politically different. Without commenting on the merits of either, you described Germany as a social federal state, while the US is not that (and is known for staunch proponents of individuality). In that framework I don't find it surprising that people protest on opposite sides of an issue in the two countries. (This is meant to be something of a logical statement, not a political one.)

I don't think that the nature of civil disobedience is disregarding laws. To the contrary, I think it can be found in regarding laws very carefully and choosing when and how to break such laws for maximum impact; then, by freely suffering the consequences for even greater impact. (This is a general point; I do not mean to imply that the Turkish protests are civil disobedience; I don't know enough yet to judge.)

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#36
post #25
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet a democratically-elected government made a decision in the name of the people to replace this park with a shopping mall. People protesting against that by blocking the construction process (i.e. stand in front of bulldozers etc.) are effectively overturning democracy in order to protect their personal interests. This is a general problem I have with such active counter-protests, be they to stop a station from bei…

> People protesting against that by blocking the construction process (i.e. stand in front of bulldozers etc.) are effectively overturning democracy in order to protect their personal interests. how so? democracy is not limited to counting votes and stfu until the next election. it's not like authorities haven't been removed from office before and decisions haven't been changed due to public disapproval. getting into…

I have absolutely no problems with people protesting, I have a problem with ‘protesters’ forcing their opinion on the rest by use of passive (standing in front of a bulldozer) or active (undermining a railroad track carrying nuclear waste containers) violence.

And yes, if ACTA protests had cut other people’s telecom lines to the US or some such thing, I would have called them anti-democratic, too.

To me, a decent society is based on (among others) the state’s monopoly on the use of force, with the legally acceptable force limited to implement decisions made by the legislative (and judiciary). Random guy simply has no right to ‘protest’ against something by force.

(Also your shift key is a little broken, it appears, making it somewhat difficult to read your post.)

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#37
Many local shops are looted by the protestors. Cars turned, stones thrown etc... So much for peaceful a protest. Mayoral election is less than a year away. Protest with your votes, not your fists.

Re: What is Happening in Istanbul?

#38
post #17

I recommend - http://occupygezipics.tumblr.com/ What puzzle me the most, is the voluntary cooperation of the media with the government. Even if the media does not support this event, how they not cover it at all? sad, I always thought of Turkey as the most successful example of a Muslim democratic state.

> Muslim democratic state. There are very, very few religious democracies, and if you only consider those both officially and effectively religious, I won’t be able to name a single one.

Turkey was famously founded as a secular state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La%C3%AFcit%C3%A9#Turkey). Things may have changed, but still ... "Muslim" probably just refers to the fact that most people living there are muslim.
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