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Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

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Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#341

Post by mpeg »

shadchnev wrote: post #259

Having read all comments, I'm somewhat lost. I was hired in London in 2008 on £37K, it was my first programming job after uni, I had clean resume. Today a competent beginner with a few web projects under his belt easily gets around £45K. I'm hiring developers for my startup – http://www.makersacademy.com – and I wish I had more applicants. I'm happy to pay £350-450/day for a decent Ruby dev and or around £60K permane…

As it's been mentioned elsewhere in the thread, asking for base salary only is a bad idea.

I'd be happy to consider moving jobs for £80k~+, but £60k would be a huge step down, and yet I voted £40-49k because that's my base salary.

My company knows they can get away with paying me less because I have enough stock+bonus to make it worth it anyway (which I don't agree with, but it's still better than not being paid that at all)

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#342

Post by daveoh »

madaxe wrote: post #321
pudquick wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_brick_university One of 6 particular universities. A similar term in the USA would be something like Ivy League: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_League

Erm, no. Red Bricks are ex-polytechnics or newbuild universities, generally specialising in quality degrees like urban forestry and golf course management. Oxford BROOKES is an example of a red brick. But not Oxford.

No. Just no. You are wrong. Red brick universities are not ex-polys. Just read the Wikipedia link in the parent post. I went to University of Sheffield, which is one of the Red Brick Universities and it has always been an Uni. Sheffield Halam, however, is the ex poly.

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#343

Post by rmc »

shadchnev wrote: post #338
rmc wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So at 60k you can't find devs maybe that's not high enough. Try offering 100k, see how many applicants you get. If you can get lots of CV then you've found the market price. Remember, to attract people you'll also need to attract people who are in jobs already. For that you'll have to offer something better than what they have.

Yes, I understand this, although I don't see any difference in number of applicants when I mention the salary and when I don't (I usually don't). I'm not seeing many good people who would be ready to join if I paid them more (it happens occasionally and we usually find a compromise). My recruiters are telling me that increasing the offer wouldn't give me more applicants. However, if the harsh reality is that I must b…

I don't see any difference in number of applicants when I mention the salary and when I don't (I usually don't).

Perhaps potential applicants think that you, like all companies, are going to pay what everyone else is. If you don't mention salary, they presume (correctly) you're paying about the average. You don't have an opportunity to "wow" them.

if the harsh reality is that I must be paying more to devs, then how come there are so many devs (about 200) in this poll indicating they are getting under 50K? Why these two hundred people don't talk to me and many other companies desperate to hire developers on much better terms?

One potential reason: Fear of the unknown.

Someone in a job for £45K knows what the job is. They know what their co-workers are like, they know how stressful/relaxed it is. They know what their boss is like, they know what the commute is like. Your new job is a big unknown. It's risky. It might be just as good, or it might be crap, the boss might be an asshole, you might be working for a client from hell, it might be very stressful, the technology stack might be horrible.

If someone changes job to you, they are taking a risk. A £15K raise (£45K → £60K) is only about ~ £7K after taxes (right?), which is about £500 per month extra in their pocket. If they have a decent salary already, it might not be worth changing to a potentially crappy job for only that. However if you offer a large salary increase (£100K), then suddenly the equation looks better, maybe that risk might pay off.

The "risk pay off" doesn't have to be salary. Why not offer 40 days annual leave, and a 4 day week for £60K. Again, reward the risk. Applicants might think "Oh the job could be boring and the boss could be an asshole, but it's only a 4 day week, and double the amount of holidays!"

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#344

Post by rmc »

_progger_ wrote: post #339
shadchnev wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I understand this, although I don't see any difference in number of applicants when I mention the salary and when I don't (I usually don't). I'm not seeing many good people who would be ready to join if I paid them more (it happens occasionally and we usually find a compromise). My recruiters are telling me that increasing the offer wouldn't give me more applicants. However, if the harsh reality is that I must b…

I am receiving letters from recruiters every day. Salaries rarely exceed 55-60k. Why should I bother if I am already getting that? And that's a mainstream enterprise skill set. Also your recruiters are likely to filter out people you might like. Did you tell them that github repo trumps a degree?

Exactly, for some people that's the baseline. 60K might not be a 'wow' factor.

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#345

Post by rmc »

SandB0x wrote: post #13

The software industry here in London is really badly paid, for salaried jobs outside finance at least. I know plenty of developers who started at £20-25k as graduates from decent universities and whose salary has slowly risen to 40k over quite a few years. PhD graduates making £35-45k too.

Never underestimate how little some fresh faced university graduates know and how unscrupulous some employers are.

In university you're surrounded by clever people who can programme (if you're in a CS degree). It can make one think that one is nothing special, and everyone can programme.

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#346

Post by UK-AL »

ownagefool wrote: post #274
SandB0x wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No mate, unless you are getting a significant cofounder-level stake in the project these guys are exploiting you.

It depends how good/wanted he is. I live in Scotland near Edinburgh, my first dev job I was earning £13k. It isn't super easy to break into development in the UK but within a year that had about doubled and that and learnt enough to be able to jump ship, which I did. Now years later, I've happily earning more than the London average by contracting. I ate shit early on because I wanted to get somewhere in an economic…

Considering a lot of founders themselves are straight out of university I think your underestimating yourself.

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#347

Post by eyko »

shadchnev wrote: post #259

Having read all comments, I'm somewhat lost. I was hired in London in 2008 on £37K, it was my first programming job after uni, I had clean resume. Today a competent beginner with a few web projects under his belt easily gets around £45K. I'm hiring developers for my startup – http://www.makersacademy.com – and I wish I had more applicants. I'm happy to pay £350-450/day for a decent Ruby dev and or around £60K permane…

In the end it's not so much about the money, but I'd be surprised if you didn't get top candidates for 100K (obviously). I don't think, however, that money plays a big part. In my case, I'm earning in the 30-39K range as a full-stack web dev (ruby and javascript), but I wouldn't change for 40, 45... and might start to think about it if I am offered 50, 60, or something high enough that it'd be difficult not to accept, but the bottom line is that a lot of us are not looking, or willing to change, because we're happy with our jobs. But of course, every now and then we think about moving on, and then even just a small rise in salary would interest us, as long as we get a change it atmosphere, meet new developers with some passion for what they do, etc.

If you have a nice team (which you do, and forward labs is also an awesome place by the way) and offer an average to high salary, then I think your problem won't be so much in attracting good devs, but more in filtering out bad ones. Another thing might be that the developers you want might not come across your offers, since they're not out there looking.

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#348

Post by rmc »

michaelochurch wrote: post #97
gaius wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the legacy of the old class system rearing its ugly head. No matter how well educated, and from what prestigious colleges, (software) engineering is blue-collar work and will never be as well paid as the "graduate management fast-track" type with a sociology degree from a "red brick". Finance isn't highly paid for software work, it's fairly paid, by world standards, only because they contrary to popular belief,…

This applies to the US as well, but probably not as severely since software engineers aren't as underpaid in the US. Finance pays a fair market wage, which seems high by comparison to all the unfair players out there, but isn't actually that unreasonable. Startups pay a theoretically fair wage (if you accept valuations at face-value and exclude liquidation preferences). It's when you see the equity/cap table (2% for…

This applies to the US as well, but probably not as severely since software engineers aren't as underpaid in the US.

I presume the US wouldn't have as strong a class system as the UK. There's a bit in Mad Men, where the British character (Lane Pryce) complains to his wife that "I've been here over a year and no-one's asked me what university I went to!"

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#349

Post by rmc »

dschiptsov wrote: post #299
gaius wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the legacy of the old class system rearing its ugly head. No matter how well educated, and from what prestigious colleges, (software) engineering is blue-collar work and will never be as well paid as the "graduate management fast-track" type with a sociology degree from a "red brick". Finance isn't highly paid for software work, it's fairly paid, by world standards, only because they contrary to popular belief,…

There is more in "the old class system" (or the caste system) than just attending elite college. It is genes. You like it or not, breeding matters a lot. What all those companies buy is not grades, it is not even a particular phenotype, it is a few generations of fine breeding, well-educated parents and relatives, etc. So, most of those guys "with a sociology degree" worth it, you like it or not. It is just one of th…

Is there any actual evidence to support this?

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#350

Post by rmc »

VexXtreme wrote: post #38
SandB0x wrote: post #13

The software industry here in London is really badly paid, for salaried jobs outside finance at least. I know plenty of developers who started at £20-25k as graduates from decent universities and whose salary has slowly risen to 40k over quite a few years. PhD graduates making £35-45k too.

That tends to be the case mostly everywhere in Europe. For that matter, most places in the world outside the US (and Silicon Valley) tend not to pay software engineers very competitively. I am from a fairly small central European country and programmers there barely make more than other professions; the salaries often amount to the national average.

I'm from Ireland, and the government's low tax approach is great for us workers. We get lots of bit US employers setting up here, and hence increasing the competition for developers.
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