Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

271–280 of 420 posts

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#271

Post by lawnchair_larry »

tptacek wrote: post #246
michaelochurch wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This applies to the US as well, but probably not as severely since software engineers aren't as underpaid in the US. Finance pays a fair market wage, which seems high by comparison to all the unfair players out there, but isn't actually that unreasonable. Startups pay a theoretically fair wage (if you accept valuations at face-value and exclude liquidation preferences). It's when you see the equity/cap table (2% for…

This comment nicely captures a misconception about how employment markets work. If, stipulating the dollar value of the whole comp package, a comp package appears fair, it is still fair no matter what that company pays anyone else . Wages are "fair" or "unfair" based on prevailing rates and supply/demand.

How employment markets work, and fairness, are not the same thing. It's not a misconception, it's a criticism.

And of course in the real world, wages are not based on supply and demand. They're based on leverage and BATNA.

Simply put, given two equal employees (hypothetically, if it were possible to measure this), it's not "fair" to give one $50k and one $300k. It's not about the prevailing wage, it's about the contribution relative to what is coming back.

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#272

Post by jman1 »

SandB0x wrote: post #13

The software industry here in London is really badly paid, for salaried jobs outside finance at least. I know plenty of developers who started at £20-25k as graduates from decent universities and whose salary has slowly risen to 40k over quite a few years. PhD graduates making £35-45k too.

Employers will always have the upper hand because in the western world discussing/knowing salaries of peers is considered taboo( I never understood this as somebody who comes from the east where asking friends and peers their salary is very normal). Level the playing field. Discuss your salary more openly and you will see things get fairer( if that's a word). Not all will make the same but you will get to what you deserve very quickly. It also helps by letting you get an idea of what you need to do to get to the next level. Would love to hear the communities thoughts on this somewhat contrarian view.

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#273

Post by UK-AL »

daywish wrote: post #266
UK-AL wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at large I.T service companies, e.g Accenture. They don't tend to advertise much, and you have to apply directly via their websites.

I recently saw Accenture advertising for a load of intermediate PHP developers in my region. They were being advertised through third party recruiters, so I got to see the salary, which was around 20K. On this occasion it was even lower than design agencies, who already struggle to find developers on their pay levels.

That's odd because their graduate developer scheme pays 32k

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#274

Post by ownagefool »

SandB0x wrote: post #261
yashodhan wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good bunch of guys, and they're helping me add backend development to my skillset. That's how I look at it. Don't care much for equity.

No mate, unless you are getting a significant cofounder-level stake in the project these guys are exploiting you.

It depends how good/wanted he is.

I live in Scotland near Edinburgh, my first dev job I was earning £13k. It isn't super easy to break into development in the UK but within a year that had about doubled and that and learnt enough to be able to jump ship, which I did.

Now years later, I've happily earning more than the London average by contracting. I ate shit early on because I wanted to get somewhere in an economic time where the young are being screwed. I think it was probably worth it, but only until your experience and talent matures a bit.

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#275

Post by tptacek »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #271
tptacek wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment nicely captures a misconception about how employment markets work. If, stipulating the dollar value of the whole comp package, a comp package appears fair, it is still fair no matter what that company pays anyone else . Wages are "fair" or "unfair" based on prevailing rates and supply/demand.

How employment markets work, and fairness, are not the same thing. It's not a misconception, it's a criticism. And of course in the real world, wages are not based on supply and demand. They're based on leverage and BATNA. Simply put, given two equal employees (hypothetically, if it were possible to measure this), it's not "fair" to give one $50k and one $300k. It's not about the prevailing wage, it's about the contr…

No, the argument you're making is irrational.

You're a $100k/yr FTE dev. A VP above you makes $200k/yr. You believe that VP should be making $50k/yr. But your position isn't improved at all if they do. You're still making $100k/yr, and someone else is taking the $150k/yr premium.

So you say, "no, I should get a share of that $150k/yr premium." Well, OK, why aren't you? What you're saying is that you're worth more than $100k/yr. You already have a way of demonstrating that: demand a raise, then start interviewing.

The flip side of this, if it helps make the point clearer: you're a $100k/yr dev. The VP at your company is already making $50k/yr. This is good how? By any logic you could employ in the above scenario, you're worth more than $100k/yr in this scenario too.

What other people in your firm make is an orthogonal concern to what you make. Clinging to the belief that pay equity is an important part of your compensation is as likely to harm you as help you; stipulating that we are all especially high-functioning professionals, the notion of pay equity is part of what puts a ceiling on what you earn now.

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#278

Post by twelvechairs »

daven11 wrote: post #267
pudquick wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_brick_university One of 6 particular universities. A similar term in the USA would be something like Ivy League: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_League

We call them brownstones in australia - because they are all made of sandstone

[edit] I think you mean 'sandstone universities' [1]. 'Brownstone' is generally a US word (plus most Australian sandstone is not brown).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandstone_Universities

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#279

Post by shrikant »

junkilo wrote: post #196
polshaw wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most people have taken it to mean GBP, but I wish it was explicit in the description.

shitballs people are making more than 200k sterling in the UK?

Yeah, that's really hard to believe. I know some 3rd year associates (meaning they've been coming up the ranks for about ~6 years) in Goldman Sachs who don't make that much.

Re: Poll: Full-time software engineers in London, what's your annual salary?

#280

Post by niteshade »

alt_f4 wrote: post #197
benjaminwootton wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

£116 a month for unlimited travel around the city really pales into insignificance against even the average IT salary. In many towns and cities outside of London you would need a car to get to work which would cost much more, even without the London uplift in salary.

It's not unlimited - just zones 1-2 and the tube shuts down around 12 making it a pain to come back home after a night out.

You can take buses from anywhere, I think you're forgetting. That's still a good deal.
Post reply on HN