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The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

businessinsider.com

11–20 of 128 posts

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#11
post #8

Given that immigration laws are import quotas, that the free market will fix things is a confused argument. There's no such free market in software engineering labour.

> There's no such free market in software engineering labour. Can you explain this a little bit? Not trying to sound combative, just would like to hear your thoughts!

Well to sabotage myself, there's no free market in anything. "Free market" is a fuzzy set.

Import quotas are well studied. When you limit the number of foreign cars, foreign commodities etc that can enter your country, you drive up the price. Local suppliers of those goods will benefit at the expense of local consumers of those goods.

But humans, unlike cars or bananas, come with lasting and deep impacts on a local society. It is a very human thing to wish to control who belongs to your ingroup, even if that ingroup is an abstraction of continental scope and with hundreds of millions of existing members.

But the fact the immigration restrictions arises from ancient social logic doesn't change its economic nature, its economic morphology if you will. And immigration restrictions are isomorphic onto any other import quota. They artificially raise the price of local suppliers (US citizens) at the expense of local consumers (US companies).

As an Australian this is less of a problem for me. We have a special secret backdoor into the US engineering market in the form of the E-3 visa.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#13
There's a big problem with the bar graph in the article. They are lumping Engineering Technology together with Engineering and Information sciences in with Computer Science. Engineering Technology is completely different from Engineering, just like CIS is completely different from Computer Science.

Grouping those together is like grouping employment numbers for electrical engineers and electricians just because they have the same root word in their titles.

The article also talks about "foreign born students... crushing the homegrown talent." If they're talking about foreign born students at US universities I wouldn't say they are "crushing" US students at all. From what I've seen the reason so many foreign students are accepted has more to do with them paying way more tuition than in-state students than anything else.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#14
Believe you me, if the big immigration reform effort in Washington were just about bringing in new STEM workers via an expanded or reformed visa system, it would be done by now. Certainly a majority of Republicans and Democrats are for it in the abstract. Mitt Romney wanted to "staple a green card" to every STEM graduate's diploma.

But that's not what the debate's about, and it's fairly silly to claim otherwise. The debate is whether or not any immigration reform will be "comprehensive", the Washington euphemism for amnesty and normalization of the existing illegal population. There is a not insignificant block of both Democrats and Republicans who will not allow anything short of a "comprehensive" bill to pass because they believe it's the only shot to achieve such normalization. There's also a reasonable argument often made that opening the doors to STEM graduates and other "desirable" workers while forcing the existing illegal population to continue to skirt the law is de facto discriminatory, because of the way the demographics of those two groups line up.

Zuck & Co. are taking the reverse position: They're pushing for the STEM reform they want just in case this time reform really does make it over the hump, and are happy to push for normalization as well, since it is the only likely path to that result.

Anyway, I don't know how I feel about normalization, but I do know that any nation that has skilled workers who will contribute much, much more than they take lining up to get in would be crazy not to let them in.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#15

From the article: "There is a different kind of shortage, but the American people won't like to admit it. "What there is is a shortage of ultra-elite American-born talent, and Silicon Valley wants to hire the very best in the world. The view from Silicon Valley is that a lot of the US talent, while bountiful in number, just doesn't stack up." That is the nub of the issue. Several of the leading companies in high-tech…

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Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#16
post #5

My take on this is that anywhere you look, most developers are poor to mediocre. The problem isn't specific to America. What is [mostly] unique to America is that immigration restrictions is the only thing stopping them from swooping up above-average talent from other countries (in no small part thanks to good salaries and the near-mythical nature of the valley) In other words, Portugal (as a random example) has the…

One company I worked for didn't look for and hire rockstar talent. They had a shop in India with lots of diligent guys who followed instructions, a decidedly inelegant architecture with lots of "repeating yourself," and a good position in an industry where just getting data from one place to another and usefully aggregating it made you tons of money.

Don't underestimate the value of being in the right market and simply knowing how to manage people.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#17

the part they missed is that they also want indentured workers as well, as in, workers that can't switch jobs for 3-4 years while they get their green card.

Yes, this is extremely relevant.

Note that 1 in 5 STEMs don't work in software because of pay or working conditions (we can assume that means, for instance, long hours).

But if you're scared of being fired (and therefore deported), startups have a free hand to exploit you.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#18

From the article: "There is a different kind of shortage, but the American people won't like to admit it. "What there is is a shortage of ultra-elite American-born talent, and Silicon Valley wants to hire the very best in the world. The view from Silicon Valley is that a lot of the US talent, while bountiful in number, just doesn't stack up." That is the nub of the issue. Several of the leading companies in high-tech…

What there is is a shortage of ultra-elite American-born talent, and Silicon Valley wants to hire the very best in the world. The view from Silicon Valley is that a lot of the US talent, while bountiful in number, just doesn't stack up.

That's a tautology. By definition, there's always going to be a shortage of ultra-elite talent. If we had a surplus of job candidates with that level of talent, it wouldn't be considered elite anymore.

SV wants easier access to the entire world's pool of ultra-elite talent, not just the US's. They want more selection and lower prices.

I don't blame them, but I don't think what they want is necessarily what's best for America. I think we would be better off if companies went back to the old-school method of "hire smart people locally and train them for the specific job skills." Because you have to train people anyway, no one is really a plug-and-play hire.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#19

Given that immigration laws are import quotas, that the free market will fix things is a confused argument. There's no such free market in software engineering labour.

Well, there's freelancing, but that market has serious problems with flows of information. (Which would be worth tons of money, if you could solve them.)

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#20
There isn't just a shortage of ultra-elite local talent, there's even a shortage of halfway competent local talent.

I've done a lot of hiring, mostly from colleges, and I can tell you that there are some schools that should just shut down their CS departments. You know there's a problem when you've given someone a 4 year degree, and they can't even get through a for loop. There's a reason fizz buzz is an interview question.

I refuse to outright ignore any school because I believe great people can go to any school (or no school at all), but some schools I have experience with are definitely a strike against you on your resume.

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