Live data from Hacker News

The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

businessinsider.com

1–10 of 128 posts

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#4
From the article:

"There is a different kind of shortage, but the American people won't like to admit it.

"What there is is a shortage of ultra-elite American-born talent, and Silicon Valley wants to hire the very best in the world. The view from Silicon Valley is that a lot of the US talent, while bountiful in number, just doesn't stack up."

That is the nub of the issue. Several of the leading companies in high-tech industry believe that "hire the best" is the most successful way to compete with other companies, and that requires hiring from a worldwide pool of job applicants. An immigration lawyer might point out that the "outstanding ability" O-1 temporary worker visa category

http://minsk.usembassy.gov/temporary_workers.html

http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind10/c3/c3s5.htm

allows people who are truly world-class experts to enter the United States to work. (If I remember correctly, that is how Fields medalist Terence Tao was able to gain his faculty position at UCLA as a citizen of Australia, although his visa status may have changed meanwhile.) But, yes, demonstrating that a person meets the O-1 visa requirements is difficult for an employer, and even at that only allows temporary residence (not a "green card").

That American graduates of STEM programs vary wildly in quality of preparation for demanding work is why any smart company will hire workers on the basis of work-sample tests rather than on the basis of college degree requirements.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4613543

Until companies in general emphasize actual job task performance rather than school credentials in hiring, visa regulation reform won't do the whole job of helping companies meet their hiring needs.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#5
My take on this is that anywhere you look, most developers are poor to mediocre. The problem isn't specific to America. What is [mostly] unique to America is that immigration restrictions is the only thing stopping them from swooping up above-average talent from other countries (in no small part thanks to good salaries and the near-mythical nature of the valley)

In other words, Portugal (as a random example) has the same shitty breakdown of poor/average/good developers as the US, but a not-insignificant number of the good ones are hirable.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#7
Of course large corporations want immigration reform!

They don't want to pay for mediocre talent in the US when they can get someone just as good overseas. The reality is that technology is eating the world and there aren't enough good engineers to create everything we need.

I think some reform is definitely necessary. The need for top engineer talent is just going to get worse (and not just in the US...all the countries will need them). If immigrants want to come to the US I feel we should welcome them.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#8

Given that immigration laws are import quotas, that the free market will fix things is a confused argument. There's no such free market in software engineering labour.

> There's no such free market in software engineering labour.

Can you explain this a little bit? Not trying to sound combative, just would like to hear your thoughts!

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#9
I think a significant part of SV's problem, is that there's an "old boy" mentality, just with different trappings. I bet a lot of the actual people who lived in the milieu portrayed in Mad Men believed they were living a sort of heightened humanity and were helping to make the world a better place. I also think that is exactly what many in SV and the Bay Area actually do; that's not a justification to look down on and prejudge fellow human beings, however. Sometimes, I wonder if I'm getting a little flavor of what pre-revolutionary Paris was like.

Re: The Real Truth About the STEM Shortage

#10
I just always assumed this was the case, since everyone talks about wanting to hire only "A" engineers.

But I'm not so sure we Americans should be "offended" by this. This article says:

> The view from Silicon Valley is that a lot of the US talent, while bountiful in number, just doesn't stack up. But Silicon Valley doesn't want to just come out and say this, since it will sound offensive to a lot of American-born grads.

I mean, of course, only 5% of American engineers are going to be in the top 5% of American engineers, for example. It's not a national failure. It's not offensive. That's the entire conversation about "A" engineers. Any country needs to look outside its borders for additional top engineers.

Then, the article goes on to paraphrase Silicon Valley:

> "Hey America, please raise the visa limit. There's a shortage of STEM talent that is willing to work for what we'll pay that also meets our high standards.

I'm not really convinced that pay has anything to do with it. The general problem really seems to genuinely be finding engineers that are good enough, just in the recruitment process period -- at least in many cases.

The article tries to use statistics to show that some STEM majors go on to other fields. But saying that 18.7% of CS majors aren't working in their field because of pay/promotion/working conditions doesn't strike me as unreasonable at all. I mean, maybe they're the "C" engineers or something, and they decided they're better at something else. Or they just enjoy something else more. The article certainly isn't proving that they're the "A" engineers everybody wants, and that they've gone on to brain surgery instead because that's more lucrative and has better working conditions.

Post reply on HN