Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons • Hacker News Board

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#101

Post by infinitone » Fri, May 31, 2013, 2:48 PM UTC

alan_cx wrote: post #42

philwelch wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about rehabilitation or punishment. It's far more cynical than that. It's simply a matter of separating people from the population. Prisoners are separated from the free population; especially dangerous prisoners are separated even from the prison population.

Yet most countries, if not all democracies, do it far more humanely than the US does. Why? Why is the self appointed leader of the free world so inhumane?

Because it isn't a free world but a mere illusion. Through deception you have been taught that this is what freedom is when its quite the contrary in most cases.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#102

Post by infinitone » Fri, May 31, 2013, 2:51 PM UTC

alan_cx wrote: post #43

Get past the comedy, listen to the facts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPZed8af9RI The facts stated have never been refuted. Be ashamed. Either Americans are the most criminal in the world, or the US justice system has a real problem. I mean, worse than Iran? Worse than China? South Africa? Are Americans really that bad? Perhaps now we know a certain hacker preferred death. I know I would. As a British citizen, I…

> I mean, worse than Iran? Worse than China? South Africa? Are Americans really that bad?

Your brainwashed intellect (not sure if its even intellect) has led you to believe that the US is a bastion of freedom when its quite the contrary. Stop watching Fox News for crying out loud.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#103

Post by potatolicious » Fri, May 31, 2013, 2:52 PM UTC

_account wrote: post #92

w_t_payne wrote: post #75

The nature of America's prison system is driven by the fact that middle class white people vote for politicians and policies that put poor black people through a cruel, inhumane and all-too-usual system of torture and deprivation. Is unusual sadism a national characteristic? I do not want to think so, but the evidence suggests otherwise.

I didn't know that the laws so clearly stated that black people are singled out to be tortured. Can you provide at least one reference to this atrocity? [I'm guessing you can't]

Racism doesn't necessarily entail singling a group out explicitly, especially today where we have a trained smell for racism.

If your intent is to single out black people, there are many ways you can target them without spelling out "black people". Specific job categories, specific neighborhoods, specific types of crime (which are hugely lopsided racially), etc etc.

The same can be applied to any race. You can effectively create a law that only targets Asian immigrants without once mentioning the words "Asian immigrant".

In the US race and crime are inexorably linked, and highly politicized. Through a combination of factors and people (acting both maliciously and otherwise), blacks are without a doubt targeted.

Here in NYC we have a rather odious policy of stop, question, and frisk, where the police are empowered to stop anyone they deem suspicious or threatening and search them. It turns out that Blacks and Latinos are search disproportionately often, well beyond their proportional contribution to crime rate. There's nothing in the regulation that spells out that dark-skinned people should be searched more, but everyone in charge knows this is the consequence, and everyone in charge intends this to be the consequence.

Racism is complicated. The fact that you don't have a hooded guy on your lawn burning a cross, screaming "lynch him!", doesn't mean it's not in front of you.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#104

Post by eru » Fri, May 31, 2013, 2:55 PM UTC

jrokisky wrote: post #61

alan_cx wrote: post #43

Get past the comedy, listen to the facts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPZed8af9RI The facts stated have never been refuted. Be ashamed. Either Americans are the most criminal in the world, or the US justice system has a real problem. I mean, worse than Iran? Worse than China? South Africa? Are Americans really that bad? Perhaps now we know a certain hacker preferred death. I know I would. As a British citizen, I…

There are many problems with the US Justice System, but those standards are impossible for any country to meet.

Norway and Sweden don't seem too bad.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#105

Post by mcherm » Fri, May 31, 2013, 2:59 PM UTC

scrapcode wrote: post #49

InclinedPlane wrote: post #44

People often ask the hypothetical of what sorts of behavior we consider normal today that people in the far future will regard as barbaric or bizarre. Our prison system is probably near the top of that list, for a variety of reasons. Not least of which is the sheer size of the prison population these days due to the war on drugs. Even more significant is the widespread societal belief that prison experience should be…

I'm kind of glad that this is your perception. This should be everyone's perception of prison. You should have an extreme necessity to keep your ass out of prison. You should be scared absolutely shitless of prison, so much that you play exactly by the rules to keep yourself from ever going there. Our prison system does a pretty good job at driving this perception home. Prison is not a rehabilitation center. If it we…

> I know plenty of unmotivated individuals that would love to sit around with a bunch of other lazy-asses and be fed 3 meals a day. For free. Don't you?

No. I know absolutely no people who would choose to be put in prison simply because they would be fed. I cannot imagine a wealthy society (and make no bones about it, our society is wealthy enough that people can be fed) which would permit that.

> It has to strike one as the number one place that you do not want to go. I can't imagine this world if it wasn't.

Try visiting Sweden some day. Or quite a few other places in the world -- almost any country other than the US, which is quite competitive for the world's worst prison system.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#106

Post by tripzilch » Fri, May 31, 2013, 3:00 PM UTC

maeon3 wrote: post #54

InclinedPlane wrote: post #44

People often ask the hypothetical of what sorts of behavior we consider normal today that people in the far future will regard as barbaric or bizarre. Our prison system is probably near the top of that list, for a variety of reasons. Not least of which is the sheer size of the prison population these days due to the war on drugs. Even more significant is the widespread societal belief that prison experience should be…

If the prisons were focused on fixing the root problem in the criminals, as if they were some sort of refuge for edification, conditioning and correction then a large body of the homeless would commit a strategic crime in order to get there so they can at least get three meals and an opportunity to move up in the world from rock-bottom. Like slavery in the 18th century, prisons are a necessary evil to punish people w…

> people who do not deserve rehabilitation, correction or edification

Wow. I know it's a matter of philosophical debate whether such people actually exist[0]. But it's a matter of wilful ignorance to pretend that anything but a tiny minority of the US prison population falls under that category.

I think they don't. There's people that would be a really bad idea to ever let back in to society (say, a Breivik) but for a lot better reasons than "does not deserve rehabilitation/edification". Then there's people for whom rehabilitation is pointless because they're so mentally deranged they're not going to get better. Obviously such cases are the minority and very rare.

Also, did you consider to think: If your homeless prefer prison, that might not be because your prisons are too pleasant, but rather how you treat your homeless? Why are they left without "an opportunity to move up in the world from rock-bottom"? It's a ridiculous argument, "we can't treat group X humanely because then group Y who we also don't give a chance will want it too"--what?!

It's those lowest rungs that a society is judged by, you know. Whether the average American has a better life means absolutely zilch as long as you leave your schizophrenics begging and mumbling in the streets, and keep people in solitary the way this article describes.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#107

Post by honzzz » Fri, May 31, 2013, 3:02 PM UTC

gruseom wrote: post #2

Solitary confinement is now so obviously a form of torture that it's surprising this is still controversial. Future generations will surely look on it the way we look on past barbarities.

> Solitary confinement is now so obviously a form of torture that it's surprising this is still controversial. Future generations will surely look on it the way we look on past barbarities.

There might be some ethnocentrism here... I might be wrong but it seems to me like you make an assumption about this generation that is only valid in US. I live in Europe and when I think about people I know, there is nothing controversial about it and we don't have to wait for future generations - we consider it barbaric now and as far as I know it's illegal - I mean people can be put to cells alone but they can read books, they have right to go for a walk with other prisoners for an hour and stuff like that - when I talk about solitary confinement I mean conditions described in that article.

I am not trying to be judgemental here - I just think that for some Americans it might be interesting to consider that in some countries things like solitary confinement or death penalty can be looked at the same or similar way that you Americans probably look at punishments like stoning to death or cutting off hands.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#108

Post by roc » Fri, May 31, 2013, 3:02 PM UTC

InclinedPlane wrote: post #44

People often ask the hypothetical of what sorts of behavior we consider normal today that people in the far future will regard as barbaric or bizarre. Our prison system is probably near the top of that list, for a variety of reasons. Not least of which is the sheer size of the prison population these days due to the war on drugs. Even more significant is the widespread societal belief that prison experience should be…

> "Our prison system is probably near the top of that list,"

If by "our" you mean "the US" then I'm already of the mind that it's bizarre and barbaric and I doubt I'm alone.

In many ways it strikes me as suffering from problems similar to those in our older (now largely dismantled) system of insane asylums.

Both sought to address a very serious problem, for which we only have flawed solutions to choose from. And while we don't have proven-better alternatives for many of the problems that arise [1], it -- as a whole -- is progressing to a place where the system has been corrupted into a larger problem than the one it's trying to address.

[1] Though when we have for-profit industry lobbying legislators based purely on their profit motive, it's foolish not to say there are proven-better alternatives to many of the problems. To say nothing of the prison-rape culture and our societal response to it.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#109

Post by rdl » Fri, May 31, 2013, 3:07 PM UTC

Confusion wrote: post #84

rdl wrote: post #71

I think I'd rather spend 3 years in solitary (given adequate books, ability to write, etc.) than in general prison population. I accept that I'm probably an outlier, though.

You think that, until you've spent a few months, perhaps only a week, in solitary confinement.

I spent 6 continuous months on Sealand with one other guy (who I avoided as much as I possibly could, saw him about 3 minutes a day if I didn't correctly time my hallway trip to avoid running into him).

Lots of space, and the Internet, though.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#110

Post by _account » Fri, May 31, 2013, 3:08 PM UTC

rthomas6 wrote: post #99

_account wrote: post #93

Prison is society's recourse for anti-social behavior. Does it have to be a violent and horrible place? No. The residents tend to make it that. In addition, I am against pampering in anyway, with my tax dollars, people whom I've had to remove from proper society...for anti-social behavior. Prison is supposed to be a deterrent. My biggest gripe is that I have to pay for it at all. I support banishment or death.

Does this view not presuppose that the exhibitors of the anti-social behavior cannot be fixed or remade into useful members of society? If you believe that, fine, but if you think that some could be reformed, why is that not worth the money? "Reform", in my mind, has nothing to do with pampering. It could be even more torturous than now...For example A Clockwork Orange. Not that I'm advocating that. Does this view al…

I suppose that good people can make a[singular and non-violent] mistake or error in judgement which can run them a foul of the law. These people don't require reform. They are typically leaniently sentenced, pay for their mistake and move on.

I also suppose that others are more habitually and fundamentally anti-social. These people are not worth the effort of trying to 'save'. The brains have literally been wired for this behavior[over the course of many years]. They must be removed from society.

There are also those somewhere in between natural-born killer and 'busted for pot'. These people are responsible for their own personal choices. If they keep making bad choices of their own volition I have no compassion for them. [I say this from first hand experience dealing with a close relative who is a lifelong fuck-up.]