Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons • Hacker News Board

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#61

Post by jrokisky » Fri, May 31, 2013, 12:20 PM UTC

alan_cx wrote: post #43

Get past the comedy, listen to the facts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPZed8af9RI The facts stated have never been refuted. Be ashamed. Either Americans are the most criminal in the world, or the US justice system has a real problem. I mean, worse than Iran? Worse than China? South Africa? Are Americans really that bad? Perhaps now we know a certain hacker preferred death. I know I would. As a British citizen, I…

There are many problems with the US Justice System, but those standards are impossible for any country to meet.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#62

Post by InclinedPlane » Fri, May 31, 2013, 12:21 PM UTC

maeon3 wrote: post #54

InclinedPlane wrote: post #44

People often ask the hypothetical of what sorts of behavior we consider normal today that people in the far future will regard as barbaric or bizarre. Our prison system is probably near the top of that list, for a variety of reasons. Not least of which is the sheer size of the prison population these days due to the war on drugs. Even more significant is the widespread societal belief that prison experience should be…

If the prisons were focused on fixing the root problem in the criminals, as if they were some sort of refuge for edification, conditioning and correction then a large body of the homeless would commit a strategic crime in order to get there so they can at least get three meals and an opportunity to move up in the world from rock-bottom. Like slavery in the 18th century, prisons are a necessary evil to punish people w…

Let me take a different tack on this response.

If what you say is true, then why is this not an explicit part of our criminal justice system? Why are there no laws and regulations which spell out the brutalities that prisoners should be exposed to? Why is the process not formalized, institutionalized, documented, and routine?

Why has there been no public campaign to repeal or modify the 8th amendment to the US constitution (banning cruel and unusual punishments)? Or to set new legal precedent in the UK to invalidate the equivalent protections in the English/British constitutions? If it is such a foundationally important part of a well-functioning society then why is it not being talked about and debated above board?

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#63

Post by jazzyb » Fri, May 31, 2013, 12:23 PM UTC

Djehngo wrote: post #58

maeon3 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the prisons were focused on fixing the root problem in the criminals, as if they were some sort of refuge for edification, conditioning and correction then a large body of the homeless would commit a strategic crime in order to get there so they can at least get three meals and an opportunity to move up in the world from rock-bottom. Like slavery in the 18th century, prisons are a necessary evil to punish people w…

I am hoping this is satire and you aren't seriously arguing that "prisons have to be barbaric otherwise the homeless and the destitute would use them to avoid starvation".

The clue is "Like slavery in the 18th century, prisons are a necessary evil..." It is a very good piece of satire.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#64

Post by irahul » Fri, May 31, 2013, 12:23 PM UTC

maeon3 wrote: post #54

InclinedPlane wrote: post #44

People often ask the hypothetical of what sorts of behavior we consider normal today that people in the far future will regard as barbaric or bizarre. Our prison system is probably near the top of that list, for a variety of reasons. Not least of which is the sheer size of the prison population these days due to the war on drugs. Even more significant is the widespread societal belief that prison experience should be…

If the prisons were focused on fixing the root problem in the criminals, as if they were some sort of refuge for edification, conditioning and correction then a large body of the homeless would commit a strategic crime in order to get there so they can at least get three meals and an opportunity to move up in the world from rock-bottom. Like slavery in the 18th century, prisons are a necessary evil to punish people w…

> If the prisons were focused on fixing the root problem in the criminals, as if they were some sort of refuge for edification, conditioning and correction then a large body of the homeless would commit a strategic crime in order to get there so they can at least get three meals and an opportunity to move up in the world from rock-bottom.

1. Prisons as correctional center far outweighs some homeless guy pick-pocketing so that he doesn't have to die tired, hungry, cold, alone on pavement.

2. A homeless guy not dying on the pavement is a benefit in itself.

> prisons are a necessary evil to punish people who do not deserve rehabilitation, correction or edification.

People go to prison for a variety of reasons. Not paying your parking ticket or possessing 5gm of Marijuana do not qualify as "do not deserve rehabilitation".

> Like slavery in the 18th century, prisons are a necessary evil

Slavery was a necessary evil?

> It's my belief that jails are full of criminals because we don't understand the mental illnesses that brought them there.

1. You can believe whatever you want.

2. Stretch the definition of law and everybody is a criminal.

3. The spectrum of things you can go to jail for is so wide the belief that all criminal brains are wired the same way has a low probability.

4. The belief that "criminals" deserve what they get is how all sorts of draconian laws come into being. When the govt. says it tortured a few alleged terrorists, and you stand on the sidelines and cheer, you don't realize you are being instrumental in your own destruction. Tomorrow it can be you getting water-boarded, and the rest of us "good citizens" will stand on the sidelines and cheer.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#65

Post by ryanac » Fri, May 31, 2013, 12:25 PM UTC

scrapcode wrote: post #49

InclinedPlane wrote: post #44

People often ask the hypothetical of what sorts of behavior we consider normal today that people in the far future will regard as barbaric or bizarre. Our prison system is probably near the top of that list, for a variety of reasons. Not least of which is the sheer size of the prison population these days due to the war on drugs. Even more significant is the widespread societal belief that prison experience should be…

I'm kind of glad that this is your perception. This should be everyone's perception of prison. You should have an extreme necessity to keep your ass out of prison. You should be scared absolutely shitless of prison, so much that you play exactly by the rules to keep yourself from ever going there. Our prison system does a pretty good job at driving this perception home. Prison is not a rehabilitation center. If it we…

This would be fine if many prisons were not privately owned entities and if most inmates were not overly sentenced for minor drug charges.

We also have a growing incarceration rate (U.S), which shows that prison does a pretty poor job of making people "scared absolutely shitless of prison so much that they play exactly by the rules" and don't forget, sometimes the rules are pretty ridiculous.

Also "...individuals that would love to sit around with a bunch of other lazy-asses and be fed 3 meals a day. For free." is already the reality of the situation in many cases.

It's not a choice between the scariest most brutal situation you can imagine or no prison at all. There are other options to make a better system. And in general, a society shouldn't have to be scared into "playing by the rules".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rat... Also read prison privatization.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#66

Post by InclinedPlane » Fri, May 31, 2013, 12:25 PM UTC

psionski wrote: post #17

simonbarker87 wrote: post #10

A very sad read and the comments are even worse. This sort of thing so clearly crosses the line in to inhumanity. I appreciate that some/many of these inmates have committed awful crimes but it seems that this particular system offers no opportunity for rehabilitation and is focussed solely on punishment. I forget where I read it but I believe that there is a correlation between the severity of the punishment and it'…

This is not punishment, this is revenge. Punishment is a corrective action, this breaks them even more. By the way, this is extremely dangerous - to paraphrase Nietzsche: in solitude, whatever you bring with you grows. Do we really want whatever they're bringing to grow?

Precisely so, the criminal justice system is incredibly vengeful. The widespread toleration of sexual assault against prisoners is perhaps the easiest proof of that.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#67

Post by InclinedPlane » Fri, May 31, 2013, 12:34 PM UTC

ZirconCode wrote: post #11

gruseom wrote: post #2

Solitary confinement is now so obviously a form of torture that it's surprising this is still controversial. Future generations will surely look on it the way we look on past barbarities.

The problem is that psychological forms of harm are not treated with as much respect as physical forms. There are no pictures of it, you cannot see it. It is the same reason why people struggle to see a psychiatrist but not a doctor. Lack of sleep is also deployed in some countries ie. the guards won't let you sleep.

Even physical forms of harm are downplayed if they have lower visibility than traditional forms of brutality and torture.

This is a widespread trend especially in law enforcement and justice and it extends beyond prisons.

Consider waterboarding. It's a hugely traumatic experience, and undoubtedly a form of torture, but because it doesn't leave bruises or break bones it is tolerated and accepted.

Consider tasers and pepper spray (OC). Again, they cause pain or muscle spasms, but they don't break bones or cause bleeding or bruising so their use is tolerated at thresholds far below what would be allowed to bring about the use of physical force, even for use in restraining someone. Being pepper sprayed in the face and eyes is every bit as traumatic and physically violent as being slapped or punched, yet pepper spray is frequently used by the police in situations where physical force would be considered police brutality. The same goes for tasers.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#68

Post by InclinedPlane » Fri, May 31, 2013, 12:37 PM UTC

mcintyre1994 wrote: post #52

I just don't understand how such a ridiculous system comes into being, these are people's lives, criminal yes, but people. Or do they just not think like that? I mean, let's say you get sent to the SHU, I won't go into why because that's probably impossible without introducing circular logic. Now all your "associates", ie everybody who knows you in prison, can also be sent to the SHU. The only way out quickly is for…

The truth of the banality of evil comes into play not just at the extremes (death camps and so forth) but also at the margins.

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#69

Post by king_jester » Fri, May 31, 2013, 12:41 PM UTC

scrapcode wrote: post #49

InclinedPlane wrote: post #44

People often ask the hypothetical of what sorts of behavior we consider normal today that people in the far future will regard as barbaric or bizarre. Our prison system is probably near the top of that list, for a variety of reasons. Not least of which is the sheer size of the prison population these days due to the war on drugs. Even more significant is the widespread societal belief that prison experience should be…

I'm kind of glad that this is your perception. This should be everyone's perception of prison. You should have an extreme necessity to keep your ass out of prison. You should be scared absolutely shitless of prison, so much that you play exactly by the rules to keep yourself from ever going there. Our prison system does a pretty good job at driving this perception home. Prison is not a rehabilitation center. If it we…

> Prison has to be scary. It has to strike one as the number one place that you do not want to go. It's the other ultimate consequence, along side of death. I can't imagine this world if it wasn't.

Prison is not a deterrent. If it was, you would see prison population decline over time. Instead, it has grown quite significantly and in a racist way (black men are massively overrepresented and sent to prison).

Re: Solitary in Iran Nearly Broke Me. Then I Went Inside America's Prisons

#70

Post by king_jester » Fri, May 31, 2013, 12:46 PM UTC

A lot of the comments here are completely ignorant about the state and nature of prisons, both on a small scale level for the lives of people who are incarcerated as well as at a large scale in how Amercian society supports prisons as a racist institution. I urge everyone looking for starting knowledge to start with Angela Davi's Are Prisons Obsolete?: http://www.amazon.com/Are-Prisons-Obsolete-Angela-Davis/dp/1...