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Extreme Saving: A Man, His Van and Five-Figure Debt

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Re: Extreme Saving: A Man, His Van and Five-Figure Debt

#41

Post by lern_too_spel »

mpyne wrote: post #29
300bps wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many cultures children take care of the parents in their old age. Is that not practical value? In farming cultures, the more children you have the more workers you have. That seems practical as well. I think his analogy is flawed.

I agree the analogy is flawed, but that doesn't invalidate his argument. People have all kinds of hobbies that add no real practical value to their lives, other than that they enjoy doing it, and we don't typically make fun of people for those.

We make fun of anybody who goes into debt for those hobbies.

Re: Extreme Saving: A Man, His Van and Five-Figure Debt

#42

Post by pyoung »

benjamincburns wrote: post #7
mindstab wrote: post #3

More anecdotal evidence that the value of America arts degrees is far less than their over inflated cost

Value is only quantifiable in the context of a purpose. Is a liberal arts degree valuable as an instrument to garner income? Statistically, no. Is it valuable as a set of experiences which help to better understand the world we live in? Absolutely. But does that make it valuable enough to justify the cost? I dunno. Ask Ken Ilgunas.

Well, considering he is now a published author, with a second book on the way, maybe there was some monetary value form that degree after all?

Of course this isn't the case for the vast majority of liberal arts graduates.

Re: Extreme Saving: A Man, His Van and Five-Figure Debt

#43

Post by sliverstorm »

comrade_ogilvy wrote: post #40
sliverstorm wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me the problem is not that we don't value history, language, etc- it's that it has become commoditized, as so many people get degrees in those fields. That probably drives down wages and drives up tuition.

At no time and no place did a history degree really pay off in terms of monetary compensation for knowledge of history. It was always commoditized, because precise knowledge of historical facts is not greatly compensated for, as the norm. It paid off in terms exercising a mind in the craft of delving into an ambiguous question, forming complex ideas out of evidence, and expressing those ideas in a more concise and ac…

A degree may traditionally not have paid off monetarily, but it didn't used to put you so far underwater. Which worked out ok- the people that loved the subject did it for the love of the subject, and didn't suffer too greatly financially from it.

Re: Extreme Saving: A Man, His Van and Five-Figure Debt

#44

Post by Guvante »

figbucket wrote: post #33
rayiner wrote: post #24

> "I have little patience for critics who don’t see the value in a liberal arts education. We don’t mock people who have children -- and there’s no practical value to having children." Uh, once Social Security goes bankrupt the practical value of having children will be the same as it always has been: someone to help take care of you when you're old and feeble. And on a macro scale, there is tremendous practical valu…

If you work out savings of not having children and put the money in a decent savings plan you'll probably have enough to pay for better qualified care multiple times over what any children may provide (or not they're not obliged to help).

Except a child's benefit to society is quite large. A newborn is probably currently predicted to generate $1 million worth of economic benefit overall. (Actual numbers are hard to get perfect given the variance)

Re: Extreme Saving: A Man, His Van and Five-Figure Debt

#46

Post by benjamincburns »

pyoung wrote: post #42
benjamincburns wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Value is only quantifiable in the context of a purpose. Is a liberal arts degree valuable as an instrument to garner income? Statistically, no. Is it valuable as a set of experiences which help to better understand the world we live in? Absolutely. But does that make it valuable enough to justify the cost? I dunno. Ask Ken Ilgunas.

Well, considering he is now a published author, with a second book on the way, maybe there was some monetary value form that degree after all? Of course this isn't the case for the vast majority of liberal arts graduates.

Sure. And he's a very determined individual. I mean, did you hear about the time he lived in a van to keep grad school financially within his reach?

The statistics definitely don't play out in a vacuum... His kind of determinism holds far more bearing on his successes (financial or otherwise) than any degree (liberal arts or otherwise) ever could alone.

Also, don't ever forget the power of defining your own terms for success. I mean, it's pretty hard to fail when you're successful by definition. Although sadly it's nowhere near as easy to do as it sounds...

Re: Extreme Saving: A Man, His Van and Five-Figure Debt

#47

Post by figbucket »

rayiner wrote: post #35
figbucket wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you work out savings of not having children and put the money in a decent savings plan you'll probably have enough to pay for better qualified care multiple times over what any children may provide (or not they're not obliged to help).

Well in this hypothetical, the post-apocalyptic scenario that bankrupts Social Security also renders savings worthless. Having a kid is very robust against something like hyperinflation, lol. In any case, that solution doesn't scale. Every form of retirement savings is just a way to earmark the production of someone else's kids (so long as human labor is needed for things, that is). If you invest in Google stock in l…

Good point.

>Having a kid is very robust against something like hyperinflation, lol.

While I don't know what the statistics are I don't like the idea of having children in part because of the assumption that they would want to help care for you later in life.

As much as I like and dislike my parents I'd sooner move to the otherside of the world than help them though old age.

Re: Extreme Saving: A Man, His Van and Five-Figure Debt

#48

Post by fein »

breadbox wrote: post #32
fein wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, but the end of that last quote leaves a bit more: "Why should we mock people who want to learn about their world and learn about themselves?" Because you don't need a damn Liberal Arts degree to do that. It didn't cost me 5 figures to learn about my ego and my id; It cost me 5 figures to get a CS degree while doing so. I also mock those with children, but only because I currently don't know a single person in…

And your pregnant friends are thinking the exact same thing about you.

Which I'm really OK with. Any of the people I immediately know who are having children will be getting the benefit of my tax dollars to pay for their mistake, as they cannot do so themselves.

So sure, they may think the same about myself, however I'm not costing the taxpayers money with my shitty decisions.

Re: Extreme Saving: A Man, His Van and Five-Figure Debt

#49

Post by fein »

nchuhoai wrote: post #26
fein wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, but the end of that last quote leaves a bit more: "Why should we mock people who want to learn about their world and learn about themselves?" Because you don't need a damn Liberal Arts degree to do that. It didn't cost me 5 figures to learn about my ego and my id; It cost me 5 figures to get a CS degree while doing so. I also mock those with children, but only because I currently don't know a single person in…

I'm not disagreeing with you that at the margins, a liberal arts degree or the pursuit of knowledge at a college might not be "worth it". I just think, liberal arts people get a lot of shit for even wanting to do so. Ultimately, it's about the second part of your comments. You clearly think they are doing something wrong with their lives, or they are not choosing the optimal route for their life. While you are obviou…

> I know how ironic my "stop judging people" judgement on your judgement must sounds like, it's a fallacy I haven't been able to solve yet

Sounds fine to me as long as we judge people based on their decisions and the impact those decisions have on a non consenting 3rd party.

I'm concerned with people choosing their preferred route for their own life, as long as its the preferred route with the minimal amount of negative consequences to the rest of society.

I think the concept of "stop judging people" is hugely misrepresented. It should be "stop judging people based on things that do not and will not affect others", because really, telling someone to not judge a rapist for being a rapist is pretty bad.

Re: Extreme Saving: A Man, His Van and Five-Figure Debt

#50

Post by rayiner »

figbucket wrote: post #47
rayiner wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well in this hypothetical, the post-apocalyptic scenario that bankrupts Social Security also renders savings worthless. Having a kid is very robust against something like hyperinflation, lol. In any case, that solution doesn't scale. Every form of retirement savings is just a way to earmark the production of someone else's kids (so long as human labor is needed for things, that is). If you invest in Google stock in l…

Good point. >Having a kid is very robust against something like hyperinflation, lol. While I don't know what the statistics are I don't like the idea of having children in part because of the assumption that they would want to help care for you later in life. As much as I like and dislike my parents I'd sooner move to the otherside of the world than help them though old age.

> As much as I like and dislike my parents I'd sooner move to the otherside of the world than help them though old age.

This is a common mode of thinking, but I personally find it bizarre. The modern American generational structure is senselessly inefficient. We impose large taxes on workers so their parents don't have to live with them, and then those workers turn around and pay huge amounts for child care because their parents don't live with them.

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