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Extreme Saving: A Man, His Van and Five-Figure Debt

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Re: Extreme Saving: A Man, His Van and Five-Figure Debt

#21
post #3

More anecdotal evidence that the value of America arts degrees is far less than their over inflated cost

Value is only quantifiable in the context of a purpose. Is a liberal arts degree valuable as an instrument to garner income? Statistically, no. Is it valuable as a set of experiences which help to better understand the world we live in? Absolutely. But does that make it valuable enough to justify the cost? I dunno. Ask Ken Ilgunas.

Is that secondary value best given by a college experience or finding it yourself then?

Re: Extreme Saving: A Man, His Van and Five-Figure Debt

#22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Value is only quantifiable in the context of a purpose. Is a liberal arts degree valuable as an instrument to garner income? Statistically, no. Is it valuable as a set of experiences which help to better understand the world we live in? Absolutely. But does that make it valuable enough to justify the cost? I dunno. Ask Ken Ilgunas.

How can you say for sure it has the second type of value?

> I dunno. Ask Ken Ilgunas.

Or to be a bit less of a dick, I think this is a cross between the ancient philosophical question, "how does one know anything to be true?" and the cliché, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder." It only holds this kind of value to an individual if the individual thinks it does. [Edit: And just to avoid the bigger philosophical question let's just say that the individual is or isn't confident that it holds this value, not that they know that it does or doesn't. ;-)]

Either way, there's always the risk that you aren't getting what you pay for.

Re: Extreme Saving: A Man, His Van and Five-Figure Debt

#23

I have always been a proponent of a more vocationally-oriented system like we have in Germany, it was outragous for me to see how much money people spend on "monterily worthless" degrees. Yet, I point out America's college system as the single best competitive advantage over the rest of the world. I so far couldn't find the words for it, but he put it soo greatly: "Plus, I was graduating with a degree in English and…

Ah yes, but the end of that last quote leaves a bit more:

"Why should we mock people who want to learn about their world and learn about themselves?"

Because you don't need a damn Liberal Arts degree to do that. It didn't cost me 5 figures to learn about my ego and my id; It cost me 5 figures to get a CS degree while doing so.

I also mock those with children, but only because I currently don't know a single person in my circles that should be having kids now, if ever.

When I hear a friend is pregnant, I just get depressed about all the opportunities they'll never have.

Re: Extreme Saving: A Man, His Van and Five-Figure Debt

#24
> "I have little patience for critics who don’t see the value in a liberal arts education. We don’t mock people who have children -- and there’s no practical value to having children."

Uh, once Social Security goes bankrupt the practical value of having children will be the same as it always has been: someone to help take care of you when you're old and feeble. And on a macro scale, there is tremendous practical value in ensuring there are 18-25 year old consumers in a couple of decades. Facebook stock would tank if it ever became the case that it's primary demographic was a monotonically shrinking set.

Also, why are college kids today so bad at job hunting? "I applied to 25 paid newspaper internships and got rejected from every single one... So, I got a job at a work camp in Arctic Alaska..."

The only way to job search as a fresh graduate is to treat it like it's a job itself. When I was job hunting during law school, I'd bang out that many applications in a day. I know a lot of people who didn't operate that way: they'd apply to a job a week or so as they found something they thought was perfect (and take forever crafting the perfect application). Those people struggled. Hint: if you're a fresh graduate, and your job search strategy doesn't involve a spreadsheet to keep track of the huge volume of applications you're submitting, you're doing it wrong.

Yes, there aren't enough jobs for fresh graduates out there (outside software engineering anyway). So obviously if everybody treated job searching seriously it wouldn't help anyone. But as long as most grads are like this guy, you have a leg up by not being like this guy.

Re: Extreme Saving: A Man, His Van and Five-Figure Debt

#25
post #24

> "I have little patience for critics who don’t see the value in a liberal arts education. We don’t mock people who have children -- and there’s no practical value to having children." Uh, once Social Security goes bankrupt the practical value of having children will be the same as it always has been: someone to help take care of you when you're old and feeble. And on a macro scale, there is tremendous practical valu…

Just imagine paying $32,000 for a "liberal-arts education" that leaves you in a state where you make statements like that one. I guess that makes me one of the critics he's impatient with.

Re: Extreme Saving: A Man, His Van and Five-Figure Debt

#26
post #23

I have always been a proponent of a more vocationally-oriented system like we have in Germany, it was outragous for me to see how much money people spend on "monterily worthless" degrees. Yet, I point out America's college system as the single best competitive advantage over the rest of the world. I so far couldn't find the words for it, but he put it soo greatly: "Plus, I was graduating with a degree in English and…

Ah yes, but the end of that last quote leaves a bit more: "Why should we mock people who want to learn about their world and learn about themselves?" Because you don't need a damn Liberal Arts degree to do that. It didn't cost me 5 figures to learn about my ego and my id; It cost me 5 figures to get a CS degree while doing so. I also mock those with children, but only because I currently don't know a single person in…

I'm not disagreeing with you that at the margins, a liberal arts degree or the pursuit of knowledge at a college might not be "worth it". I just think, liberal arts people get a lot of shit for even wanting to do so.

Ultimately, it's about the second part of your comments. You clearly think they are doing something wrong with their lives, or they are not choosing the optimal route for their life.

While you are obviously entitled to your opinion, I do have some reservations about this kind of judgement. People have different views of what is a happy fulfilled life for them, so let it be.

(I know how ironic my "stop judging people" judgement on your judgement must sounds like, it's a fallacy I haven't been able to solve yet)

Re: Extreme Saving: A Man, His Van and Five-Figure Debt

#27
I admire the determination to pay off one's debt no matter the personal cost, but I do not understand the life choices. There has to be more effective ways to pay debt than to move to the wilderness where you literally cannot spend 95% of your income.

Personally I favor the idea that it is better to focus your energy on earning/producing more, than it is to try to penny-pinch and cut costs. In today's world it seems there are innumerable opportunities to find money/success. But I acknowledge I'm saying that from a position of privilege, sitting here checking HN in my spare time.

Perhaps there was no other easy way for this English major to make more than $8 an hour, or perhaps he wanted the experience of going to Alaska (and also paying off his loan). But I would not suggest this as a first-choice plan to repay student loans!

Re: Extreme Saving: A Man, His Van and Five-Figure Debt

#29
post #18
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This: "I have little patience for critics who don’t see the value in a liberal arts education. We don’t mock people who have children -- and there’s no practical value to having children."

In many cultures children take care of the parents in their old age. Is that not practical value? In farming cultures, the more children you have the more workers you have. That seems practical as well. I think his analogy is flawed.

I agree the analogy is flawed, but that doesn't invalidate his argument. People have all kinds of hobbies that add no real practical value to their lives, other than that they enjoy doing it, and we don't typically make fun of people for those.

Re: Extreme Saving: A Man, His Van and Five-Figure Debt

#30
While his story is interesting, I don't think it should be a model for anyone else or an example of how to be prudent with your education or debt situation. It's almost as if he went to such lonely extremes so he could write about this later.

And blindly paying down debts is irrational; you need to look at the broader picture, not be intimidated by what you owe. Maybe that money would be better spent on other things in the short term. I have a low interest rate on my student loan and just pay the minimum.

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